362: Podcast Showcase – Wilderness Conversations

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Hi everyone, it’s Levi.
I’m excited to share another

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podcast for us to highlight.
Podcasts have been around for a

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while.
It’s been an interesting, you

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know, last eight years, you
know, pod, I guess podcasting

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itself has been around for a
much longer time.

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Our, this, but this show we’ve
been running now for a, like we

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said, almost eight years, but
it’s been really encouraging to

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kind of highlight the work that
other brothers and sisters are

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doing in this field.
It’s I’m, I’m a massive podcast

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consumer.
I listen to, I don’t know, 3 or

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4 hours of podcasting every day.
I’m doing my chores or in my

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long commute.
So that’s a, you know, one of

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our core principles with it’s in
our intro for good yourself in

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talks is we’re trying to get the
Bible in your Daily News feed.

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And it’s been it’s so helpful to
me how much our other brothers

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and sisters are are doing.
And so it’s been really great.

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I think to highlight these, I
wanted to kind of shout out

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other shows that we that we
didn’t get to mention.

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We actually have a page called
resources on our website on

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goodcrystalfiantalks.com that
you can click that it links out

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to other podcasts.
But also I wanted to shout out

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specifically Jason.
So Jason Hensley, our Co host

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here has a weekly podcast called
End of Week Encouragement, which

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I subscribe to and I would
advise you do too.

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I am just now sunsetting.
I’m finishing a different show

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called A Little Faith, which is
actually very similar to

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Wilderness Conversations.
I’ll talk more about that in a

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minute.
And then once in a while we post

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an episode on Good Christelphian
Music, which is another podcast

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specifically about Christelphian
music.

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I have so much respect for all
these shows and kind of the work

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that goes into these podcasts,
Wilderness Conversations as an

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example, but also, but also
faith works and and essential

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Bible studies, which we
highlighted earlier in the

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month.
They take so much more work

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really than our show does than
good Gracelfy and talk does.

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We we listen to a lot of talks
and then put in the intro.

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Doesn’t take much work, right,
for us to record an intro or

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prepare for that.
It takes me, you know, 10-15

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minutes tops.
And the the these other shows

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have hours of preparation that
go into them, which is pretty

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evident.
So anyways, I wanted to take a

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minute to kind of thank the
brothers and sisters who who

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have spent time podcasting and
encourage anyone else.

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If you want to start a podcast,
if you have an idea for one,

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we’d love to help you.
And we, we would love to enjoy

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and be encouraged by, by your
work.

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But it is hard.
It’s as I just said, I’ve, I’m

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closing a different show called
the little faith because it’s

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hard.
It’s hard to keep the energy and

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to keep the engagement, but to
that and yeah, this this show,

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Wilderness Conversations has
been such a great discovery for

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me and I’m sad I was kind of
late to it.

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Brother Stephen Dodson has been
hosting it for almost five years

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now.
He started in 2020, actually

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this month.
I’m looking at it now.

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So he this show is officially
passed its first five years.

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And this has been a really
excellent show.

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Brother Stephen does a really
great job in these interviews

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with these different people.
And this is a good example.

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The one we’re sharing is Uncle
Ron Hicks sharing his story of

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faith.
I have a connection to brother

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Ron and, and actually they talk
about his book in this, in this

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episode.
It’s kind of a review of his

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book, which came out about 15
years ago.

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And I just have this very unique
story which I’ll tell Jess, my,

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my wife, sister Jess and I were
in India together helping at the

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Shunam home in 2010 when this
book was released.

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And by chance, we got a copy out
there in India.

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And I got terribly sick just for
a couple of days and read the

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whole book in my, in my bed
there in India and told my

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grandfather about it, who was on
the tidings committee at the

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time.
And he asked me to write a

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review.
So I wrote the, I wrote the

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Tidings magazine’s review of
this book in 2010 while I was

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sick in India.
So that’s why this, I was, I was

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excited to listen to this
episode again, kind of remember

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how amazing the story is of, of
Brother Ron’s life and how, how

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many interesting things he did
kind of in, in his work and in

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his work in the truth.
So it’s very encouraging very.

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And and again, I really, I
really enjoy how good of an

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interviewer Brother Steven is.
So this is definitely a great

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show to go back on.
Again, he has a five year back

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catalog with lots of great
episodes.

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I also would shout out there’s a
parenting episode pretty

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recently that I really enjoyed
when that came out.

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So this is a great, great
example of I think a really

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helpful podcast.
So that’s enough for me.

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Again, thank you to everyone for
listening to this.

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And I do encourage you to check
out the other podcasts that

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we’ve highlighted and, and the
ones that we’ve listed on our

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website.
And if you have an idea of a

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podcast you’d love, you want to
start, I would love to support

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that.
So thank you all.

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And here is Wilderness
Conversations, Brother Ron

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Hicks, my journey in faith.
Ron Hicks was born in Adelaide,

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was baptised in Adelaide in
August 1953 and now lives in

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Adelaide but has been in many
places in the meantime.

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Ron was a member of the
Washington DC Christadophian

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Church or Ecclesia for over 50
years and now back in Adelaide

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he attends the Happy Valley
Ecclesia.

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Ron joins Wilderness
Conversations to share some of

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his journey of faith.
Ron, thanks very much for

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joining Wilderness
Conversations.

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Ron, I’m very pleased to be here
with you today.

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You wrote a book called my
journey in Faith, and you made a

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really interesting statement.
You made lots of interesting

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statements, but in the in the
preface, you made an interesting

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statement around your motivation
for writing the book because

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you, you made the point.
I’ll quote you had a long life

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aversion to talking very much
about yourself.

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I I resonate with this because
people often say that to me when

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I ask them to join me on the
podcast.

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But you had a reason why you
ended up writing a book about

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your life.
What was that reason?

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Well, the reason is this that I,
I really enjoy reading

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biographies and autobiographies.
I’ve always had a lifelong

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interest in that, in that sort
of literature.

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And and you know, I read the,
the a number, a number of books

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in on that genre really.
But then I, I thought I wish

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more brothers and sisters would
write these sorts of books.

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And then as I mentioned in the
premise of the book, I, I

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realise I’d have been a bit
inconsistent.

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I was wanting others to other
rather than sisters.

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So particularly to, to write,
write their autobiographies or

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then wasn’t prepared to do it
myself.

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So that that was a sort of a key
motivation.

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And on top of that, the, the
sister in the Otto work Leisure

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in Canada, who’s a professional
editor and for the Tardings

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magazine.
And she pressed me quite

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strongly to sort of move in that
direction.

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So that’s how it all happened.
Well, it’s out of print now, but

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I managed to get my hands on a
copy and it’s a fantastic read

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and I really enjoyed it and
found it quite engaging all the

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way through and quite
encouraging as well.

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So for those who haven’t got it,
I’m not sure if you can get it,

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I assume it’s out of print, but
there’s plenty of copies

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floating around.
You’ll have a but you’ll

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probably find someone who’s got
a copy.

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Let’s go back to the beginning
for you and just tell us a

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little bit about where you were
born, where you grew up, and

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some of the, you know, the
important early influences in

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your life.
OK, well, I was born here in

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Adelaide, South Australia.
I was very blessed actually

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because I was born up in a very,
a very godly home.

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But my, both my parents actually
did not come from particularly

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religious backgrounds, but they,
they came to the truth just

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before their marriage and they
provided my brother and myself

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with a really wonderful, a
wonderful spiritual environment.

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It was very stable.
It was very spiritually focused.

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So as I dedicated my, my book,
I, I dedicated to them their,

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their influence was, was
exceptional.

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And so the home influence was
very, very powerful and strong

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and, and sustaining.
But at the same time, at the, at

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the time the Adelaide eclosure
was very large.

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When I was growing up, it was a,
it was a big eclosure of 5-6

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hundred members.
It was really quite sizeable and

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it was a wonderful, wonderful
eclosure environment.

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So I had a wonderful mixture
really.

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I had a very good family
background, spiritual background

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there.
And I had a very strong

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exclusive background which
provided all all sorts of

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spiritual encouragement for for
folk, including young folk.

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And I feel that I benefit from
that from both those enterprises

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to a major degree.
Where did your mum and dad come

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into contact with the gospel?
Well, my, my father had a before

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he was married, had a next door
neighbor, who I must say rather

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eccentric brother, whose name I
won’t mention, of course, who,

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who was very interested in
international affairs.

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And my, my father was also very
interested in that.

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But this brother, the next door
neighbor was very made very good

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use of the opportunity to see
how to explain to my father how

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how the scripture sort of rather
a good focus for understanding

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international developments and
so on.

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So that that was the vehicle
through through which my my

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father became interested.
And then my mother, that was as

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I said, it was before they were
married, but my mother was

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equally receptive.
And and so they were, they were

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baptized just just before their
their marriage.

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So, so my background is not
really a traditional Christopher

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background.
This from a a background which

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would say came from from from
the outside community.

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You said you had a sort of a
vibrant ecclesial life for a 12

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year old, 14 year old, 16 year
old leading up to the age of

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your baptism.
What were some of the sort of

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key activities and important
influences for you?

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Well, the, the two key things
there I would say were the

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summer school and the, and the
youth activities.

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I think the summer school was
concerned.

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It was a very, very well run
grain disciplined Sunday school.

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I had a lot of students, I can’t
remember now, a couple of 100.

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It was just a very, very big
Sunday school.

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But uniquely, I guess for the
time, it was very focused on

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the, on the written.
Oh, we always seem to be sitting

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for written examinations on
something or other.

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And so the discipline of
preparing for, for Sunday

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school, for preparing for these,
these exams as soon to go on

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forever.
And all that was a good

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influence.
And the concurrent with that, of

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course, was the, with the youth
activities, because with a, with

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a, a bigger creature, there was
a, a wide range of, of youth

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activities, spiritual, of
course, but also social and, and

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that was a wonderful foundation
for growing up.

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And also the mutual improvement
classes.

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They even had a younger mutual
improvement class with those who

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are under 21.
So the, the, the whole

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environment was, I would say,
disciplined.

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It was very Bible focused and
and it was also at the same time

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very enjoyable and, and
obviously I made friends there.

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There have been lifelong friends
since I’ve come back for living

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abroad for a long time.
Just catching up with old

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friends is just a real treasure.
And, and a lot of those

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friendships were made in in
younger, very younger years.

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So all all together, the
upbringing was a was a huge

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blessing and I thank the Lord
continuously for that.

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What?
Were some of the activities you

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got involved with as a young
brother after you were baptised?

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00:12:21,800 –> 00:12:24,720
Well, the mutual improvement
class is one thing, of course,

219
00:12:24,720 –> 00:12:28,040
the and of course, giving him
one or two of the ones first

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00:12:28,360 –> 00:12:31,800
classes are sort of traumatic.
And I remember, I remember so

221
00:12:31,800 –> 00:12:34,800
well the very first time I had
to give a talk to a quite a

222
00:12:34,800 –> 00:12:37,600
large gathering in the in the
exterior hall, and it was called

223
00:12:37,600 –> 00:12:40,800
the temple still is actually.
And and that led I’ll never

224
00:12:40,800 –> 00:12:43,840
forget that the first occasion
when I had to give that my first

225
00:12:44,120 –> 00:12:47,720
talk to a big audience, I, I was
a second on the speaking list

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00:12:47,720 –> 00:12:50,160
for the for the evening.
And I thought I’d fall through

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00:12:50,160 –> 00:12:55,520
the floor and eventually my, my
time as the second speaker, I

228
00:12:55,520 –> 00:12:58,240
was on the platform.
And then halfway through,

229
00:12:58,640 –> 00:13:01,560
halfway through the, the talk
and my mind seemed to go

230
00:13:01,560 –> 00:13:04,320
complete blank.
And there was a long pause.

231
00:13:04,600 –> 00:13:08,360
And so, so after the talk, I
asked the one, some of the folks

232
00:13:08,360 –> 00:13:11,320
there and my family, what do you
think of the long pause?

233
00:13:12,200 –> 00:13:13,760
And they, they didn’t even
recognise it.

234
00:13:13,760 –> 00:13:17,200
So I was so uptight on the
occasion.

235
00:13:17,200 –> 00:13:20,200
I guess that’s that.
I was very sensitive to that.

236
00:13:21,000 –> 00:13:25,680
But yeah, they’re, they’re
preparing for classes, engaging

237
00:13:25,680 –> 00:13:28,680
all sorts of occasional
activities, helping.

238
00:13:28,680 –> 00:13:31,880
And I was also the following my
father’s footsteps.

239
00:13:31,880 –> 00:13:34,360
I was the secondary of the
Sunday school at quite a young

240
00:13:34,360 –> 00:13:36,840
age.
That was quite a responsibility,

241
00:13:36,840 –> 00:13:40,200
although I didn’t do much else
apart from move chairs around

242
00:13:41,520 –> 00:13:45,120
that it was all, all that was
integrated and, and the, the

243
00:13:45,120 –> 00:13:48,000
main thing to say I suppose is
the, the, the pleasure was just

244
00:13:48,160 –> 00:13:51,360
the centre of my life.
It was just, it was the focus

245
00:13:52,240 –> 00:13:56,560
and not odorous at all.
It was extremely enjoyable and

246
00:13:57,120 –> 00:13:59,800
and fulfilling and remembered
with a lot of a lot of

247
00:13:59,800 –> 00:14:02,280
affection.
That is a blessing with your

248
00:14:02,280 –> 00:14:06,320
parents and your your brother.
You went on a an overseas trip,

249
00:14:06,320 –> 00:14:09,760
which I imagine back then would
have been on the race.

250
00:14:09,760 –> 00:14:12,680
I mean, obviously people travel
internationally regularly now,

251
00:14:12,680 –> 00:14:15,800
but back in what it was at the
early 1950.

252
00:14:15,920 –> 00:14:20,000
Yeah, 1954 that, that was a
major event because my, my

253
00:14:20,000 –> 00:14:24,200
father very much wanted to go to
the UK because of family links

254
00:14:24,200 –> 00:14:26,640
there.
And my mother said yes, we’ll go

255
00:14:26,640 –> 00:14:29,440
over to the two boys and my
brother and ourself come with

256
00:14:29,440 –> 00:14:31,560
us.
So we obviously we’re on my

257
00:14:31,560 –> 00:14:35,720
mother’s side.
So, so we, we joined the, the

258
00:14:35,720 –> 00:14:41,400
trip, the six month trip, but it
was quite an it was quite a

259
00:14:41,800 –> 00:14:45,320
decision to make because oddly
enough, this might seem rather

260
00:14:45,320 –> 00:14:49,800
strange, I guess, but a key
factor was that we had been

261
00:14:49,800 –> 00:14:54,400
attending Sunday school without
any, any miss for 9 1/2 years.

262
00:14:54,760 –> 00:14:59,080
And to be a way to be a way
would break the 10 year record.

263
00:14:59,200 –> 00:15:03,760
Well, not record exactly, but 10
year sort of milestone And, and

264
00:15:03,760 –> 00:15:07,400
my parents were, that might seem
sort of an old criteria, but

265
00:15:07,400 –> 00:15:10,160
we’re wondering whether we
should wait until this

266
00:15:11,000 –> 00:15:14,920
interesting milestone of 10
years without missing on any

267
00:15:14,920 –> 00:15:19,280
Sunday had been achieved.
Anyway, the, the, the fact of

268
00:15:19,280 –> 00:15:23,560
the matter is we did go on the
trip in 1954 and it was a very,

269
00:15:23,560 –> 00:15:28,880
it was a wonderful trip really.
We, of course, we, those days

270
00:15:28,880 –> 00:15:32,480
you sailed to the UK, it took,
it took a month to get there in

271
00:15:32,480 –> 00:15:36,680
a month to come back again.
That was a wonderful experience

272
00:15:37,320 –> 00:15:40,520
through the, through the Red
Sea, through the, through the

273
00:15:40,520 –> 00:15:43,760
Suez Canal.
Anyway, the, the trip to the, to

274
00:15:44,640 –> 00:15:46,560
the UK was a wonderful
experience.

275
00:15:46,560 –> 00:15:50,240
And because again, the focus was
pretty much on the also a large

276
00:15:50,240 –> 00:15:52,760
extent was visiting better
assistance in various parts of

277
00:15:52,760 –> 00:15:58,920
the UK and also in Germany.
And we spent about 4-4 months, I

278
00:15:58,920 –> 00:16:01,880
think in the UK and, and Germany
and then came back, you know,

279
00:16:01,880 –> 00:16:05,360
later in the year.
So, so all that was a great

280
00:16:05,360 –> 00:16:09,960
experience and, and also I
enjoyed on that trip both to and

281
00:16:09,960 –> 00:16:12,800
fro having a couple of two or
three days in India.

282
00:16:12,800 –> 00:16:17,000
And that was a fascination for
me because I in India and, and

283
00:16:17,000 –> 00:16:21,720
the Indian subcontinent later in
life became quite a focus of, of

284
00:16:21,720 –> 00:16:24,640
my activities, work activities
and.

285
00:16:25,040 –> 00:16:26,840
Indeed.
I guess even travel.

286
00:16:26,840 –> 00:16:28,320
I mean, people talk about a
travel bug.

287
00:16:28,400 –> 00:16:31,040
Maybe you got the travel bug in
1954?

288
00:16:32,120 –> 00:16:35,680
Well, mentioning you made an
interesting point about the the

289
00:16:36,040 –> 00:16:38,200
somewhat infrequency of
international travel.

290
00:16:38,200 –> 00:16:40,920
That’s I remember very well the
year before we went which is

291
00:16:40,920 –> 00:16:44,960
1933, brother Lindsay Cahoon and
brother President who are very

292
00:16:44,960 –> 00:16:47,480
well known members of the
Atlantic Claser.

293
00:16:47,720 –> 00:16:53,600
They were given a farewell, a
farewell this sort of evening

294
00:16:53,600 –> 00:16:57,040
really in the Atlantic Claser.
It was very strongly supported.

295
00:16:57,040 –> 00:17:00,560
The hall was full.
It was such a rare event and

296
00:17:00,720 –> 00:17:03,520
both at the end of the
programme, brother a person,

297
00:17:03,520 –> 00:17:07,200
Brother Lindsay Given had to
give a a talk to the audience

298
00:17:07,200 –> 00:17:10,599
and they were completely wound
up, completely exercised about

299
00:17:10,599 –> 00:17:13,680
the same pain in truth and
dramatically.

300
00:17:13,720 –> 00:17:16,720
And brother Lindsay given was
given to dramatic gestures.

301
00:17:17,160 –> 00:17:23,200
He, he unfurled all his, all his
stapled sea and air tickets and

302
00:17:23,200 –> 00:17:27,040
all the rest stretched from one
side of the ball to the other

303
00:17:27,560 –> 00:17:30,160
and there was unfurled with
great panache.

304
00:17:31,040 –> 00:17:35,120
And the, and the audience is
sort of agog this extraordinary

305
00:17:35,120 –> 00:17:39,240
trip with all these flights and
sea voyages and who knows what.

306
00:17:39,800 –> 00:17:41,840
But it was just, I just
mentioned all that because it

307
00:17:41,840 –> 00:17:48,640
really was quite a not a rarity,
but it was somewhat unusual to

308
00:17:48,640 –> 00:17:51,960
take a, a long, a long trip away
from Australia.

309
00:17:52,760 –> 00:17:54,200
I didn’t work out what year you
were born in.

310
00:17:54,200 –> 00:17:56,880
How old were you when you went
on this trip in 1954?

311
00:17:57,400 –> 00:18:00,560
18 years of age, right?
My, my brother was just over a

312
00:18:00,560 –> 00:18:04,600
year old, older than myself.
So, so it was a very, it was

313
00:18:04,680 –> 00:18:07,640
just a wonderful trip at a very
formative Salomon.

314
00:18:07,840 –> 00:18:10,080
What are some of your memories,
because you would have gone to

315
00:18:10,200 –> 00:18:12,200
go to lots of different
ecclesias and met lots of

316
00:18:12,200 –> 00:18:15,680
different brothers and sisters.
Was there an overwhelming sort

317
00:18:15,680 –> 00:18:20,240
of insight or or realisation
from that trip with regard to

318
00:18:20,600 –> 00:18:22,440
how brothers and sisters lived
in other places?

319
00:18:22,560 –> 00:18:27,600
Oh, very, very much so, very
much so because they just seeing

320
00:18:27,600 –> 00:18:30,120
eclusion life was very
interesting the the the number

321
00:18:30,120 –> 00:18:32,080
of Eclesias there as you went
from town to town.

322
00:18:32,080 –> 00:18:33,600
There were so many Eclesias in
Britain.

323
00:18:34,000 –> 00:18:38,240
I found that quite impressive.
There was somewhat of a sadness

324
00:18:38,240 –> 00:18:41,760
to it, of course, because at
that time, at that time the,

325
00:18:42,960 –> 00:18:46,640
the, the reunion of the two
communities in the UK had not

326
00:18:46,640 –> 00:18:50,440
been completed.
It was completed just very

327
00:18:50,440 –> 00:18:54,720
shortly after we were there.
But it meant that unfortunately

328
00:18:54,720 –> 00:18:58,400
at the time we couldn’t, we, we
were in terms of fellowship, we

329
00:18:58,400 –> 00:19:03,080
were restricted to the substrate
fellowship when at that time we

330
00:19:03,080 –> 00:19:05,360
did not really have access to
the central fellowship.

331
00:19:07,520 –> 00:19:09,320
Sometimes it’s best not to talk
about these things.

332
00:19:09,320 –> 00:19:13,520
But on the other side, there’s a
big plus factor because when

333
00:19:13,520 –> 00:19:16,280
reunion of the two fellowships
was accomplished in the mid

334
00:19:16,280 –> 00:19:22,000
1950s in the UK, it was such a
such a huge development.

335
00:19:22,000 –> 00:19:25,680
So this disappointment we had
and sort of not having

336
00:19:26,480 –> 00:19:29,200
completely free access to quite
a large part of the brotherhood

337
00:19:29,200 –> 00:19:34,680
in the UK, all that was that
division of anticipated really

338
00:19:34,680 –> 00:19:40,800
with the, with the realisation
of reunion in the mid 1950s.

339
00:19:40,800 –> 00:19:44,440
So, and we also stayed just one
other part.

340
00:19:44,440 –> 00:19:49,320
We stayed, we’ve got our sister
Cyril Cooper in London for many,

341
00:19:49,320 –> 00:19:53,360
many weeks there.
And that was extremely

342
00:19:53,360 –> 00:19:55,240
hospitable.
And they, they were, they were

343
00:19:55,280 –> 00:19:57,960
quite well unknown.
And so they gave us wonderful

344
00:19:57,960 –> 00:20:03,760
access to, to, to Cledus, you
know, throughout, throughout

345
00:20:03,760 –> 00:20:05,720
Britain.
To put it in the most general

346
00:20:05,720 –> 00:20:10,240
terms, it was, it was another
exhilarating experience, the

347
00:20:10,240 –> 00:20:14,040
spiritual experience, which we
it’s exhausting.

348
00:20:14,080 –> 00:20:15,520
We we’re seeing it travel
everywhere.

349
00:20:15,520 –> 00:20:18,720
We even drove down to Rome and
back.

350
00:20:18,720 –> 00:20:22,040
I don’t know how we managed it.
It was quite an exhausting

351
00:20:23,120 –> 00:20:28,400
program in a way, but but it’s
certainly memorable.

352
00:20:29,320 –> 00:20:30,920
I’m interested in your
statements about fellowship

353
00:20:30,960 –> 00:20:33,640
because it’s when you’ve got it,
it’s not something you

354
00:20:33,640 –> 00:20:35,480
appreciate because you’ve always
had it.

355
00:20:35,480 –> 00:20:39,520
And in Australia, largely
speaking, we’ve had the the

356
00:20:39,520 –> 00:20:42,040
benefit of the work that was
done in the 1950s.

357
00:20:42,520 –> 00:20:44,480
And for something someone like
myself just a little bit

358
00:20:44,480 –> 00:20:48,120
younger, have really never had
the experience of not having

359
00:20:48,120 –> 00:20:50,560
that.
So I think that’s really

360
00:20:50,560 –> 00:20:52,920
interesting to hear you make
that statement and it obviously

361
00:20:52,920 –> 00:20:54,880
had an effect on you.
Well, it had a big effect.

362
00:20:54,880 –> 00:20:57,120
Particularly it’s some of the
well known speakers like

363
00:20:57,200 –> 00:20:59,920
brothers John Carter and those
are, there’s some of the really

364
00:20:59,920 –> 00:21:03,400
well known speakers at the time,
but we, we did not really have

365
00:21:03,400 –> 00:21:08,240
full access to and that was
disappointing Brother Norris.

366
00:21:08,240 –> 00:21:11,880
So you can think of a lot of
other Whitaker and many others

367
00:21:12,240 –> 00:21:15,640
who, who are very, very capable
speakers and exceptional Bible

368
00:21:15,640 –> 00:21:18,600
scholars.
And in many ways it meant that

369
00:21:18,600 –> 00:21:21,320
we didn’t have full access to
them.

370
00:21:21,680 –> 00:21:24,200
Of course, we went to a few of
the Bible classes and lectures

371
00:21:24,200 –> 00:21:27,440
and so on.
But it was just, it was, there’s

372
00:21:27,440 –> 00:21:33,000
an awkwardness about it, which
was there at the time, but that

373
00:21:33,000 –> 00:21:36,280
that’s why throughout life I’ve
always had a strong feeling that

374
00:21:36,280 –> 00:21:39,240
we should press the unity as
much as possible as long as of

375
00:21:39,240 –> 00:21:41,200
course, it’s on good scriptural
foundations.

376
00:21:41,200 –> 00:21:46,360
But but the, the, the the
disadvantages of of

377
00:21:46,360 –> 00:21:55,440
disfellowship, I think are quite
acute and and every effort I

378
00:21:55,440 –> 00:21:58,960
think should be made to try and
have a unified brotherhood.

379
00:22:00,120 –> 00:22:02,400
So much we all, we all obviously
benefit.

380
00:22:03,160 –> 00:22:07,600
Around this time you were
deciding on what career choice

381
00:22:07,600 –> 00:22:09,280
to make.
What were some of your early

382
00:22:09,280 –> 00:22:10,400
thoughts and where did you end
up?

383
00:22:10,480 –> 00:22:16,040
Well, when I finished schooling,
I didn’t have much idea what

384
00:22:16,040 –> 00:22:17,920
what I was going to do.
I didn’t have any particular

385
00:22:17,920 –> 00:22:20,800
sort of preference or idea what
I would do.

386
00:22:20,800 –> 00:22:24,800
So my, my father was actually in
the insurance business.

387
00:22:25,800 –> 00:22:29,720
So he, he, he arranged an
appointment for me in the, in

388
00:22:29,720 –> 00:22:32,840
the, in the AMP, which is a life
insurance company in Australia.

389
00:22:33,520 –> 00:22:39,680
And his, my father’s main
concern was that I take a

390
00:22:39,680 –> 00:22:43,280
position which would not involve
in any social engagements, which

391
00:22:43,280 –> 00:22:45,760
would sort of be discouraging
spiritually.

392
00:22:45,760 –> 00:22:50,720
So, so my first position for,
for my viewers was actually with

393
00:22:50,720 –> 00:22:55,600
the AMP Society, but which, you
know, which was a very

394
00:22:55,600 –> 00:22:59,320
interesting organization, but
there’s no career opportunities

395
00:22:59,320 –> 00:23:02,240
there at all.
You, you just clearly would be a

396
00:23:03,400 –> 00:23:05,120
sort of static career.
Nothing would happen.

397
00:23:05,560 –> 00:23:09,320
So I’m not weary of that.
So eventually I, I remember that

398
00:23:09,320 –> 00:23:12,040
I had a common scholarship which
I should have taken advantage

399
00:23:12,040 –> 00:23:13,720
of.
So I went to, back to, I went to

400
00:23:13,720 –> 00:23:17,440
university for, took a degree in
economics and then.

401
00:23:19,040 –> 00:23:21,480
Why economics?
Well, that was it was by

402
00:23:21,480 –> 00:23:23,720
default, actually.
I wasn’t.

403
00:23:24,240 –> 00:23:30,520
Medicine wasn’t quite my thing.
Engineering was not my thing.

404
00:23:31,040 –> 00:23:34,720
It was almost ruling out the
others.

405
00:23:35,440 –> 00:23:37,400
Yeah, right.
And it turned out to be

406
00:23:38,440 –> 00:23:43,320
God-given choice because it
opened up business of employment

407
00:23:43,320 –> 00:23:47,120
which later became very, very
helpful many particularly in

408
00:23:47,120 –> 00:23:50,080
terms of missionary activities
and so on.

409
00:23:50,080 –> 00:23:55,400
So, so anyway, I, I left when I
finished university after four

410
00:23:55,400 –> 00:24:01,120
years there at the other
university in economics, I, I

411
00:24:01,120 –> 00:24:03,760
had to leave Adelaide because
the degree in macroeconomics,

412
00:24:03,760 –> 00:24:06,600
you really, there was no career
in Adelaide at all.

413
00:24:06,800 –> 00:24:09,640
So you either had to go to
Sydney, Melbourne or, or

414
00:24:09,640 –> 00:24:14,520
Canberra.
And so I took a a position, I

415
00:24:14,520 –> 00:24:16,640
was offered a position in the
Reserve Bank of Australia which

416
00:24:16,800 –> 00:24:21,160
were just then being established
as the Central Bank of

417
00:24:21,160 –> 00:24:23,160
Australia.
Give me that was a God direction

418
00:24:23,280 –> 00:24:25,720
decision, certainly.
So you were one of the, well,

419
00:24:25,720 –> 00:24:28,560
not the first employees, but you
moved to the Reserve Bank of

420
00:24:28,560 –> 00:24:30,720
Australia, right?
And its inception which and I

421
00:24:30,720 –> 00:24:33,400
I’ve just assumed it’s always
existed, but that’s of course

422
00:24:33,400 –> 00:24:35,920
not the case.
Well, I I should clarify that

423
00:24:36,600 –> 00:24:40,120
the central bank functions were
were previously under the, under

424
00:24:40,200 –> 00:24:42,800
the umbrella of the Commonwealth
Bank, the Commonwealth Bank.

425
00:24:43,360 –> 00:24:45,840
Which was which was then owned
by the federal government.

426
00:24:45,920 –> 00:24:47,640
Yes, that’s right.
The Commonwealth Bank was had

427
00:24:47,920 –> 00:24:50,240
two functions, a trading
function and the central bank

428
00:24:50,240 –> 00:24:53,040
function.
In in the early 60’s the the

429
00:24:53,120 –> 00:24:55,360
central bank functions were
taken out of the Commonwealth

430
00:24:55,360 –> 00:24:59,640
Bank of Australia and became
the, the, the, the Reserve Bank

431
00:24:59,640 –> 00:25:01,200
of Australia, which of course it
is now.

432
00:25:01,600 –> 00:25:05,040
So so I, I joined, I joined the
Reserve Bank just after they had

433
00:25:05,440 –> 00:25:10,520
kept just after it had opted out
from the Commonwealth Bank and

434
00:25:10,520 –> 00:25:13,440
become a became a separate, a
separate entity.

435
00:25:13,640 –> 00:25:17,200
But the, but the, the, the plan
of the Reserve Bank was

436
00:25:18,200 –> 00:25:23,600
particularly a God director
because it’s, it gave me a, it,

437
00:25:23,600 –> 00:25:27,720
it LED into other avenues of my
employment which were very

438
00:25:27,720 –> 00:25:31,120
beneficial to me spiritually and
in terms of mission

439
00:25:31,120 –> 00:25:33,520
opportunities.
So the the the time at the

440
00:25:33,520 –> 00:25:39,800
Reserve Bank was was
particularly helpful and and

441
00:25:39,800 –> 00:25:42,560
enjoyable too.
You were a young brother and

442
00:25:42,680 –> 00:25:44,840
you’re moving state.
You had to move from Adelaide to

443
00:25:44,840 –> 00:25:49,000
Sydney, so life in Sydney would
have been a whole new experience

444
00:25:49,000 –> 00:25:50,680
for you.
Well, it was actually.

445
00:25:51,240 –> 00:25:55,200
And I, I enjoyed it because when
I went to Sydney, Sydney’s

446
00:25:55,200 –> 00:26:00,840
always an exciting city.
It’s, but I, I decided when I

447
00:26:00,840 –> 00:26:04,720
went to Sydney Ecclesia, I, I
would join a small ecclesia

448
00:26:04,720 –> 00:26:07,160
because in that light, I’d
always been a member of a very

449
00:26:07,160 –> 00:26:09,560
big ecclesia as I, as I
mentioned that.

450
00:26:09,560 –> 00:26:14,000
So I joined the, the ecclesia
which is, which was called the

451
00:26:14,000 –> 00:26:15,960
Burwood ecclesia.
It was called Little Burwood

452
00:26:15,960 –> 00:26:19,520
actually, because it was very
close to another much larger

453
00:26:19,520 –> 00:26:20,920
Eclasia, the Shasta Rd.
Eclasia.

454
00:26:20,960 –> 00:26:25,840
And I joined this bird Eclasia,
which were mainly comprised

455
00:26:25,840 –> 00:26:28,040
weather and sisters who’d come
out of the Concorde Fellowship,

456
00:26:28,040 –> 00:26:32,040
which was which had, which had
previously been in the Old Pass

457
00:26:32,040 –> 00:26:34,280
Fellowship, but now had just
joined the Central Fellowship.

458
00:26:34,280 –> 00:26:36,880
So.
So it was very nice joining a

459
00:26:36,880 –> 00:26:40,320
small meeting of enthusiastic
weather and citizens who just

460
00:26:40,480 –> 00:26:44,080
appreciated the, the benefits of
coming over to the bigger

461
00:26:44,080 –> 00:26:50,160
Central Fellowship in Australia.
So the time at the, at the, at

462
00:26:51,640 –> 00:26:53,400
the moment eclosure was very,
very nice.

463
00:26:53,520 –> 00:26:56,280
And of course, living in Sydney
and working in the Reserve Bank,

464
00:26:56,280 –> 00:27:01,200
I found the whole that the whole
experience are very, very

465
00:27:02,040 –> 00:27:05,040
interesting and uplifting.
I was only in the Reserve Bank

466
00:27:05,040 –> 00:27:07,920
with two or three years and they
asked me whether I’d be

467
00:27:07,920 –> 00:27:10,720
interested in doing exchange
with the Reserve Bank of India

468
00:27:11,560 –> 00:27:15,880
during a study of the short term
money market and in Bombay and

469
00:27:15,880 –> 00:27:20,120
in other parts of India.
So that was, that was a

470
00:27:20,120 –> 00:27:21,680
wonderful opportunity really
too.

471
00:27:21,680 –> 00:27:27,240
So I, I seized that opportunity
of spending quite a few months

472
00:27:27,240 –> 00:27:30,920
in India working at the Reserve
Bank of India in, in Bombay.

473
00:27:30,920 –> 00:27:35,520
And that, that again was
triggered by the employment of

474
00:27:35,520 –> 00:27:37,920
the Reserve Bank of Australia
because they arranged it all and

475
00:27:38,400 –> 00:27:42,520
encouraged it.
And and it it’s sort of

476
00:27:42,520 –> 00:27:46,560
generally sort of was the seed
of my later interest in

477
00:27:46,560 –> 00:27:50,240
missionary activities that three
or four months I had in India

478
00:27:51,280 –> 00:27:58,560
was, was very important in terms
of enthusing me for submission

479
00:27:58,680 –> 00:28:02,440
activities.
So on return to Sydney, I note

480
00:28:02,440 –> 00:28:07,760
that the Reserve Bank at that
time moved to a building on in

481
00:28:07,760 –> 00:28:09,040
Martin Place.
Yes.

482
00:28:09,600 –> 00:28:12,520
And in your book, I chuckled
when I read, you watched the

483
00:28:12,520 –> 00:28:14,200
construction of the Sydney Opera
House.

484
00:28:14,200 –> 00:28:16,800
Yes, as the iconic structure
gradually took shape.

485
00:28:16,920 –> 00:28:19,800
What an extraordinary memory.
Well, there was the Reserve Bank

486
00:28:19,800 –> 00:28:21,600
was a lovely new building.
It was just being built.

487
00:28:21,600 –> 00:28:23,720
Of course, it was a new, new
institution.

488
00:28:23,720 –> 00:28:26,120
It was a lovely building on the
corner of Macquarie St. and

489
00:28:26,120 –> 00:28:28,280
Mountain Place.
And I had a lovely office.

490
00:28:28,280 –> 00:28:30,320
They really just on the 15th
floor.

491
00:28:30,320 –> 00:28:32,360
I think it was looking out
across the Sydney Harbour.

492
00:28:32,360 –> 00:28:35,200
It was just gorgeous.
You have to be, you had to be

493
00:28:35,200 –> 00:28:38,760
distracted from your work, look
out and look at the beauty of

494
00:28:38,760 –> 00:28:41,760
the of the harbour.
But they’re way in the distance

495
00:28:41,760 –> 00:28:44,800
you can see the Sydney Opera
House gradually being, being

496
00:28:44,800 –> 00:28:48,160
built.
Yeah, Sydney’s always been a

497
00:28:48,160 –> 00:28:51,320
special place for me.
I, I enjoy the collision.

498
00:28:51,640 –> 00:28:54,880
I know it’s frustrating traffic
wise, I know all the problems

499
00:28:54,880 –> 00:28:57,280
with Sydney.
But the time I had there, the 10

500
00:28:57,280 –> 00:29:00,200
years I had living in Sydney, I,
I very much enjoyed them.

501
00:29:01,600 –> 00:29:07,680
But then then career wise, the
the Reserve Bank, it was very

502
00:29:07,680 –> 00:29:11,560
generous in, in providing
scholarships or financial

503
00:29:11,560 –> 00:29:14,360
arrangements where you could,
where you could take a year

504
00:29:14,360 –> 00:29:19,160
after to further your studies to
do graduate studies in

505
00:29:19,160 –> 00:29:21,800
economics.
The typical thing for the

506
00:29:22,000 –> 00:29:24,160
Reserve Bank was to send you
down to the Canberra, to the

507
00:29:24,160 –> 00:29:27,480
Australian National University
in Canberra to, to do some

508
00:29:27,480 –> 00:29:29,560
studies.
There were, I didn’t want to do

509
00:29:29,560 –> 00:29:32,400
that too much because it was
all, it was just sitting in a

510
00:29:32,400 –> 00:29:36,600
corner writing a thesis on some,
some, some subject or other.

511
00:29:36,880 –> 00:29:42,920
I really wanted to, to have more
training in, in, in theoretical

512
00:29:42,920 –> 00:29:45,800
economics where you’re taught,
you’re in classes, you know,

513
00:29:45,800 –> 00:29:50,240
we’re taught.
And so the, the only prospect of

514
00:29:50,240 –> 00:29:53,520
that, well, there’s no prospect
of that in Australia at all.

515
00:29:54,160 –> 00:29:56,960
So the bank, which surprised me,
said to me, why don’t we can,

516
00:29:56,960 –> 00:30:00,640
why don’t we send you abroad and
do that sort of study abroad.

517
00:30:00,640 –> 00:30:04,280
So I thought that was an
extraordinary offer which I, I

518
00:30:04,280 –> 00:30:09,680
took up and that led to the time
I had the Yale University in

519
00:30:09,680 –> 00:30:13,800
the, in the US, which was fully
looked after and financed by

520
00:30:13,800 –> 00:30:17,840
the, by the Reserve Bank.
So, so the Reserve Bank was a

521
00:30:18,880 –> 00:30:23,600
was a wonderful help to me and
in moving forward.

522
00:30:23,720 –> 00:30:26,320
It’s great to see investment in
young people in their

523
00:30:26,320 –> 00:30:28,720
development, like that’s quite
inspirational.

524
00:30:29,760 –> 00:30:32,960
I think in between sort of that
time, correct me if I’m wrong,

525
00:30:32,960 –> 00:30:37,320
but you out of you took some
time off and went to, well,

526
00:30:37,320 –> 00:30:40,600
Britain and the Holy Land just
as a young man, is that right?

527
00:30:40,600 –> 00:30:42,800
So that was in your early days
at the Reserve Bank?

528
00:30:43,280 –> 00:30:44,920
Yeah, that’s right.
I should have mentioned that

529
00:30:44,920 –> 00:30:47,440
that that’s jumping.
That’s before I I went to the

530
00:30:47,440 –> 00:30:50,800
United States.
The Reserve Bank had another

531
00:30:50,800 –> 00:30:53,160
scheme.
That’s just a wonderful

532
00:30:53,160 –> 00:30:55,160
institution.
It still is.

533
00:30:55,160 –> 00:30:57,640
I respect the Reserve Bank a
lot, but they had another

534
00:30:57,640 –> 00:31:01,400
arrangement that if you wanted
to take 6 to 9 months to travel

535
00:31:01,400 –> 00:31:07,040
abroad, they would encourage
that and they would arrange for

536
00:31:07,040 –> 00:31:10,560
you to work in the Reserve
Bank’s office in London, their

537
00:31:10,560 –> 00:31:15,120
branch in London.
So I, I learned of that and I

538
00:31:15,120 –> 00:31:18,520
thought that’d be wonderful
really to, and that this

539
00:31:18,520 –> 00:31:23,800
preceded the, this preceded the,
the university in 20.

540
00:31:24,720 –> 00:31:29,040
So I, I jumped at that
opportunity and, and went across

541
00:31:29,040 –> 00:31:31,840
to the UK and worked in the
Reserve Bank, obviously in

542
00:31:31,840 –> 00:31:36,560
London.
And because they gave me just a

543
00:31:37,960 –> 00:31:40,880
wonderful opportunity to get to
know the many brother and

544
00:31:40,880 –> 00:31:42,480
sisters and the clashes in the
UK.

545
00:31:42,640 –> 00:31:47,200
And at that time, because the
reunion had been accomplished

546
00:31:47,200 –> 00:31:51,840
and, and I had the full benefit
of, of, of the wider fellowship.

547
00:31:51,840 –> 00:31:56,400
And that was a that was that six
months was absolutely wonderful.

548
00:31:56,960 –> 00:32:00,400
The work was not onerous at all.
And the London officer was there

549
00:32:00,400 –> 00:32:05,720
back and I because I went to all
the study weekends and heard all

550
00:32:05,720 –> 00:32:08,760
the well known speakers and
Oxford Conference, all the rest

551
00:32:08,760 –> 00:32:12,120
of them and made full use of the
opportunity to to visit them.

552
00:32:12,600 –> 00:32:15,720
The creatures in the UK and and
the brothers and sisters were

553
00:32:16,240 –> 00:32:21,480
so, so welcoming.
And so I made many, many friends

554
00:32:23,440 –> 00:32:28,800
with the folks there and and for
a younger brother, that was

555
00:32:29,440 –> 00:32:33,760
again, a great spiritual
experience.

556
00:32:35,200 –> 00:32:37,560
And you took the opportunity to
go to the Holy Land.

557
00:32:37,760 –> 00:32:40,120
This got my interest in
particular because I’ve, I’ve

558
00:32:40,320 –> 00:32:42,480
been there a few times myself
and have quite an interest in

559
00:32:42,480 –> 00:32:43,840
it.
Of course we’ll get on to it,

560
00:32:43,840 –> 00:32:45,520
but you ended up going there
many times.

561
00:32:45,520 –> 00:32:52,320
But this is 1965 S pre Six Day
War, and when I’ve been to

562
00:32:52,320 –> 00:32:55,880
particularly Jerusalem, probably
more so than other places, I I

563
00:32:55,920 –> 00:32:58,560
always kind of wish I hadn’t
been able to go there before it

564
00:32:58,560 –> 00:33:00,400
became such a big sprawling
city.

565
00:33:01,440 –> 00:33:03,640
It must have been amazing back
in 1965.

566
00:33:04,440 –> 00:33:08,280
Well, it was really because that
was just, yes, it was, that was

567
00:33:08,280 –> 00:33:11,200
before the the war, of course.
And it meant when you went

568
00:33:11,200 –> 00:33:14,560
through to Israel, you didn’t
have access to East Jerusalem.

569
00:33:15,120 –> 00:33:18,560
All you, all you could do is to
so sort of viewpoint you could

570
00:33:18,560 –> 00:33:21,000
look across to the Mount of
Olives where you, you didn’t

571
00:33:21,000 –> 00:33:24,200
have access to the Old City of
Jerusalem or going up the Mount

572
00:33:24,200 –> 00:33:27,520
of Olives or walking through a
Ghana, Gethsemane and so on.

573
00:33:27,520 –> 00:33:30,520
So it was a much smaller country
across then.

574
00:33:31,440 –> 00:33:33,600
Yeah, that was on the way back
from from London.

575
00:33:34,640 –> 00:33:38,040
I spent about a couple of weeks,
I think it was in, in Israel at

576
00:33:38,040 –> 00:33:41,080
that time.
And I travelled, you know, from

577
00:33:41,080 –> 00:33:44,040
a lot right up to Galilee maybe
four years ago.

578
00:33:44,040 –> 00:33:46,600
But it was very different in
later years when I went back to

579
00:33:46,600 –> 00:33:49,240
Israel for work.
Later years when I, you know,

580
00:33:49,240 –> 00:33:53,120
when the country of course was
much larger and you had access,

581
00:33:53,120 –> 00:33:58,200
you had access to the Mount of
Olives, to the, to the area

582
00:33:58,200 –> 00:34:02,120
across to the Jordan and so on.
That, that, that visit I very

583
00:34:02,120 –> 00:34:03,840
much show.
And from, from Israel I went

584
00:34:03,840 –> 00:34:07,880
down into Africa.
I went down to Nairobi and then

585
00:34:07,880 –> 00:34:11,280
stopped for about quite a few
days of Mauritius where there

586
00:34:11,280 –> 00:34:16,320
was a new mission programme just
developing and that was, it was

587
00:34:16,320 –> 00:34:19,560
a, it was a great trip back
actually from the UK through

588
00:34:19,560 –> 00:34:22,800
Israel, down through Africa,
into Russia and back to

589
00:34:22,800 –> 00:34:26,360
Australia.
So I made full use of the of the

590
00:34:26,760 –> 00:34:28,480
travelling opportunity.
Well, you certainly did.

591
00:34:28,480 –> 00:34:32,440
You were certainly you had a
level of curiosity and interest

592
00:34:32,440 –> 00:34:34,960
in in travel, no doubt as a as a
young brother.

593
00:34:35,080 –> 00:34:37,639
Well, I, I also on that trip
because I always made a point of

594
00:34:38,400 –> 00:34:42,440
being in touch with the brothers
and sisters in and Tebby when in

595
00:34:42,440 –> 00:34:46,719
Uganda, I stayed with brothers
and Sister Johnson, who are them

596
00:34:46,719 –> 00:34:50,280
as missionaries in, in Nairobi.
I stayed with them.

597
00:34:50,920 –> 00:34:54,360
The Sykes, the Sykes, Steve
Sykes and his wife were there

598
00:34:54,360 –> 00:34:57,160
and Wendy Sykes were there.
Well, the Stanley own was in

599
00:34:57,160 –> 00:35:00,920
Nairobi.
And then in Mauritius there’s

600
00:35:00,920 –> 00:35:03,440
some brother and sisters engaged
in mission activity.

601
00:35:03,440 –> 00:35:05,360
There’s, there’re all these
places there.

602
00:35:07,200 –> 00:35:10,960
There’s an accretional focus, an
accretional interest and, and a

603
00:35:10,960 –> 00:35:14,360
reason for being there really.
And on top of that, because the

604
00:35:14,360 –> 00:35:18,680
the sugar on the cake there was
the was the stopover in Israel

605
00:35:18,680 –> 00:35:20,880
on the way.
And that was, that was a very

606
00:35:20,920 –> 00:35:22,640
good way to start the trip back
home.

607
00:35:22,840 –> 00:35:25,200
You made a comment in your book
which I could actually relate

608
00:35:25,200 –> 00:35:26,320
to.
And there’s when you get to

609
00:35:26,320 –> 00:35:27,920
Israel, you feel like you’re at
home.

610
00:35:28,960 –> 00:35:31,120
I thought I I absolutely relate
to that.

611
00:35:31,640 –> 00:35:34,920
Well, I relate to it too, very
much so because the, the, the,

612
00:35:35,360 –> 00:35:38,320
the main thing is that the, what
you read, the place you read

613
00:35:38,320 –> 00:35:41,600
about in Scripture, come up,
come alive.

614
00:35:41,600 –> 00:35:44,480
You know, you can, you can, when
you read Scripture again, having

615
00:35:44,520 –> 00:35:47,960
visited these places, you can,
you can picture the scene and,

616
00:35:47,960 –> 00:35:50,160
and it’s somewhat different to
what one I’d expected.

617
00:35:50,360 –> 00:35:52,520
I hadn’t expected Jerusalem to
be so small.

618
00:35:52,640 –> 00:35:57,160
It’s quite, you can walk around
Jerusalem, you know, half a day,

619
00:35:57,160 –> 00:36:00,560
almost or less.
So, So it allows you to get a

620
00:36:00,560 –> 00:36:04,360
feel for the dimensions of the
place or the, OR the topography

621
00:36:04,360 –> 00:36:07,400
of the, of the land or how
places fit.

622
00:36:07,440 –> 00:36:10,200
You know, when you read them
during your daily readings, you

623
00:36:10,200 –> 00:36:14,200
can, you can sort of visualize
the scenes even like the Galilee

624
00:36:14,200 –> 00:36:17,400
and the, the several amount, you
know, when you’ve been to the

625
00:36:17,400 –> 00:36:21,280
place where the servant was
given it’s look across the

626
00:36:21,280 –> 00:36:23,880
Galilee and across the the Sea
of Galilee.

627
00:36:23,880 –> 00:36:26,040
There.
It still allows you to read

628
00:36:26,040 –> 00:36:30,760
Scripture with another, another
dimension with a perspective of

629
00:36:31,120 –> 00:36:35,080
having been there.
You have some idea of the of the

630
00:36:35,480 –> 00:36:37,640
location of the topography and
so on.

631
00:36:39,880 –> 00:36:42,200
Great experience.
You were a young brother at this

632
00:36:42,200 –> 00:36:44,880
stage, you’re not married and
you didn’t get married.

633
00:36:45,440 –> 00:36:48,000
And you mentioned that you had
some interest, but they weren’t

634
00:36:48,000 –> 00:36:51,400
reciprocated, which I did find
amusing.

635
00:36:52,560 –> 00:36:57,280
Maybe I shouldn’t have what?
What advice do you have for

636
00:36:57,280 –> 00:36:58,840
young people?
Because not everyone gets

637
00:36:58,840 –> 00:37:02,600
married, so you had to sort of
come to grips with that.

638
00:37:03,040 –> 00:37:04,600
What are your reflections on
that?

639
00:37:05,600 –> 00:37:07,680
That’s a very good question
really, because this is sort of

640
00:37:07,680 –> 00:37:11,240
more personal aspect, I suppose,
but the, the, the overriding

641
00:37:11,840 –> 00:37:16,360
feeling I have on all those the
Lord directs your Lord directs

642
00:37:16,360 –> 00:37:20,040
your life really that that I I
hope was a theme that came

643
00:37:20,040 –> 00:37:22,640
through from the book that I
wrote, the autobiography.

644
00:37:22,920 –> 00:37:25,920
I I felt that the Lord directed
me because like marriage,

645
00:37:26,320 –> 00:37:29,760
marriage obviously would have
been very nice, but then on the

646
00:37:29,760 –> 00:37:34,080
other side of the coin, I would
not have been able to do all

647
00:37:34,640 –> 00:37:36,960
many things I did.
I have done.

648
00:37:36,960 –> 00:37:39,920
You know, if I had been married,
would it be impossible to to

649
00:37:39,960 –> 00:37:44,920
have moved around as much as I
have business so many occasions

650
00:37:44,920 –> 00:37:47,680
have been involved in missionary
activities would mean would not

651
00:37:47,680 –> 00:37:49,920
have been it would not have been
difficult.

652
00:37:49,960 –> 00:37:51,600
It would not have been possible.
It would have been very

653
00:37:51,600 –> 00:37:52,680
circumscribed.
Really.

654
00:37:53,080 –> 00:37:54,480
It’s not that I didn’t want to
get married.

655
00:37:55,200 –> 00:37:59,240
It’s just it was just the way
the course of life took.

656
00:37:59,240 –> 00:38:00,040
Really.
It was not.

657
00:38:00,360 –> 00:38:02,680
I wouldn’t say it was an even a
decision.

658
00:38:03,120 –> 00:38:06,880
It was just the way events
unfolded and I accepted them as

659
00:38:06,880 –> 00:38:11,880
the Lord’s direction and and
unfolded a way which I felt in

660
00:38:11,880 –> 00:38:19,880
the end was my own spiritual
advantage because in marriage I

661
00:38:19,880 –> 00:38:23,720
couldn’t, I just couldn’t have,
I couldn’t have done those

662
00:38:23,720 –> 00:38:25,680
things.
I would have just, I would have

663
00:38:25,680 –> 00:38:27,800
been, would have just not been
possible.

664
00:38:27,800 –> 00:38:30,280
Now, I’m not saying one thing is
better than another.

665
00:38:30,520 –> 00:38:35,360
It’s just the the the flow of
life was and I I took it

666
00:38:35,360 –> 00:38:39,960
strongly as the as the Lord’s
guide guidance and accepted it

667
00:38:39,960 –> 00:38:45,280
and and joyfully so because I’m
very, very happy and and content

668
00:38:45,280 –> 00:38:48,600
life.
Oh, I think the theme of

669
00:38:48,720 –> 00:38:51,440
submitting to and allowing the
Lord to work in your life very

670
00:38:51,440 –> 00:38:55,120
much did come out in the book.
I think it it, it was, it was

671
00:38:55,120 –> 00:38:56,040
strong for.
Sure.

672
00:38:56,200 –> 00:38:58,680
That was my objective.
I, I really wanted that flavour

673
00:38:58,680 –> 00:39:01,720
and it’s not, it’s not a
contrast, hopefully not a

674
00:39:01,720 –> 00:39:06,600
contrived theme, but I just, I
just felt that the, that was the

675
00:39:06,600 –> 00:39:09,920
central theme I wanted to convey
that the Lord does direct one’s

676
00:39:09,920 –> 00:39:12,120
life.
If one proceeds in prayer and,

677
00:39:12,440 –> 00:39:15,960
and with a good spiritual back
background, which I was given,

678
00:39:16,440 –> 00:39:19,960
then the Lord’s erection is, is
absolutely critical.

679
00:39:20,040 –> 00:39:26,800
And I I I accepted them.
Well, you’re you’ve taken the

680
00:39:26,800 –> 00:39:29,000
opportunity to go and do some
study at Yale.

681
00:39:29,240 –> 00:39:34,520
So you left Sydney, left
Adelaide and went to the US.

682
00:39:35,400 –> 00:39:38,960
Another new experience.
Well, that was a big change, you

683
00:39:38,960 –> 00:39:42,000
know, because that was again
provided by the Reserve Bank.

684
00:39:42,000 –> 00:39:46,560
The Reserve Bank was just just
an extraordinary employer in

685
00:39:46,560 –> 00:39:49,480
that sense.
And and again seems odd to say

686
00:39:49,680 –> 00:39:51,280
for Central Bank to be got
directed.

687
00:39:51,280 –> 00:39:53,960
It seems very odd to say that,
but it was because he opened up

688
00:39:53,960 –> 00:39:55,640
all these different
opportunities.

689
00:39:56,120 –> 00:40:01,120
So I, I had, I took this
graduate degree at Yale

690
00:40:01,120 –> 00:40:05,760
University, which is a, a very,
it was, it was challenging

691
00:40:05,760 –> 00:40:08,800
because it’s a very good
university and, and the style of

692
00:40:08,800 –> 00:40:13,600
the style of teaching there is,
is different.

693
00:40:13,600 –> 00:40:15,480
When I was used to at the
University of Adelaide, it was

694
00:40:15,480 –> 00:40:20,440
very, very, very, very.
How would you say that the

695
00:40:20,440 –> 00:40:22,720
teaching was not just a
professor standing up front,

696
00:40:22,720 –> 00:40:25,720
Just.
Talking for an hour, it was all

697
00:40:25,720 –> 00:40:29,000
interactive and I, I was just
not used to that style of, of

698
00:40:29,120 –> 00:40:31,400
instruction at all.
So and you, you just had to

699
00:40:31,400 –> 00:40:33,720
contribute.
And so it was, it was

700
00:40:33,720 –> 00:40:37,040
challenging, but, and of course
some of the professors, they

701
00:40:37,040 –> 00:40:40,200
were very well known as some
very good economists there.

702
00:40:40,640 –> 00:40:44,760
So, so the experience was, was a
challenge professionally, but

703
00:40:45,160 –> 00:40:49,200
very rewarding, I would say.
But they, they, the very nice

704
00:40:49,200 –> 00:40:52,000
thing about is that the Yale
University is, it’s, it’s only

705
00:40:52,000 –> 00:40:55,880
about 30 miles away, I guess,
from the Meriden Ecclesia and

706
00:40:55,880 –> 00:41:00,080
the Meriden Ecclesia in
Connecticut and Central in

707
00:41:00,160 –> 00:41:03,000
central Connecticut.
And so I, I joined, when I was

708
00:41:03,000 –> 00:41:06,600
there, I joined the Meriden
Ecclesia, which was a charming

709
00:41:06,600 –> 00:41:11,960
ecclesia, just lovely.
And they were, they, I had the

710
00:41:11,960 –> 00:41:14,320
fondest memories of the times I
was there.

711
00:41:14,720 –> 00:41:18,240
They looked after me.
Yeah, of course, I was living in

712
00:41:18,240 –> 00:41:20,000
the Hall of graduate studies at
university.

713
00:41:20,000 –> 00:41:23,120
So it was so nice to get away
from the university and the

714
00:41:23,120 –> 00:41:24,920
pressure of the university.
There’ll always be a Sunday to

715
00:41:24,920 –> 00:41:28,240
look forward to and the the
fellowship and hospitality that

716
00:41:28,240 –> 00:41:31,600
they provided was very, very
memorable.

717
00:41:31,720 –> 00:41:34,520
You have to tell the story of
when you arrived there first.

718
00:41:34,960 –> 00:41:41,600
Oh, well, yes, well, the very
first Sunday I was, I was there.

719
00:41:41,600 –> 00:41:44,640
I, the, as I said, the
university was about 30 miles

720
00:41:44,640 –> 00:41:50,680
away from the Meridian Ecclesia
and I booked a taxi to take me

721
00:41:50,680 –> 00:41:53,480
the next morning to the treasure
hall.

722
00:41:53,800 –> 00:41:59,520
And I, and they, they said that
they, there’s a shortage of

723
00:42:00,080 –> 00:42:03,520
regular taxis and they’ll be
providing a, a stretch

724
00:42:03,520 –> 00:42:07,320
limousine.
So I was alarmed, you know, Oh

725
00:42:07,800 –> 00:42:11,320
my, I thought it was very
amusing at first then and I got

726
00:42:11,320 –> 00:42:13,320
closer and closer to the
treasure hall.

727
00:42:13,960 –> 00:42:16,280
Oh dear.
What are the, what are the local

728
00:42:16,280 –> 00:42:19,680
brothers and sisters going to
trying to think of this as this

729
00:42:19,680 –> 00:42:23,240
Australian, young Australian
brother arriving at the scene

730
00:42:23,600 –> 00:42:28,200
and, and I arrived at the time
of maximum embarrassment

731
00:42:28,200 –> 00:42:31,960
actually, because the, it was a,
it was a period between the

732
00:42:31,960 –> 00:42:35,240
finishing of the Sunday school
and, and the memorial service.

733
00:42:35,240 –> 00:42:37,720
So quite a lot of the folks were
outside and on the lawns.

734
00:42:38,080 –> 00:42:40,520
And so here I was arriving in
this enormous car.

735
00:42:40,520 –> 00:42:43,280
That’s all the black car.
Oh dear.

736
00:42:43,800 –> 00:42:47,080
I, I was never, I was never
allowed to forget that moment.

737
00:42:48,320 –> 00:42:50,920
A great introduction to your new
ecclesial home for the next

738
00:42:50,920 –> 00:42:55,160
little while.
Yes, it was and the music, but

739
00:42:55,160 –> 00:42:59,040
that, that was an ecclesia of
about 50 members or so and, and

740
00:42:59,040 –> 00:43:04,560
very nice, very nice ecclesia
and extremely hospitable.

741
00:43:04,880 –> 00:43:10,720
And then during the summer
months, I, I, I was given an

742
00:43:10,720 –> 00:43:13,720
Employment Opportunity in
Washington, but then of course,

743
00:43:13,720 –> 00:43:16,160
took the chance to visit some of
the American Bible schools.

744
00:43:16,160 –> 00:43:20,800
So, and at that time I thought
Wilbraham was the main,

745
00:43:21,280 –> 00:43:24,000
Wilbraham was the main school
which I went to.

746
00:43:24,000 –> 00:43:29,320
And that was, you know, I was,
there was a member of all those,

747
00:43:29,400 –> 00:43:31,720
Brother Harry Whitaker was a
speaker, I think, and Brother

748
00:43:31,720 –> 00:43:35,520
Alfred Norris.
It was just a, it was a panel of

749
00:43:36,360 –> 00:43:40,080
biblical experts.
So that was that was a time to

750
00:43:40,080 –> 00:43:42,920
remember.
You returned to Sydney via the

751
00:43:43,280 –> 00:43:48,080
Soviet Union.
Yeah, well, I was wanting to

752
00:43:48,200 –> 00:43:51,760
sort of maximise opportunities
and the Reserve Bank typically

753
00:43:51,760 –> 00:43:53,560
was saying just come back
anywhere you like.

754
00:43:54,160 –> 00:43:58,040
So which they’ve done on the way
back from London, you know, I

755
00:43:58,040 –> 00:43:59,520
mentioned through Israel and
Africa.

756
00:44:00,080 –> 00:44:02,560
So I thought, well why not try
something good ambitious.

757
00:44:02,880 –> 00:44:06,200
I always ask them, you know, if
this is reasonable or they

758
00:44:06,200 –> 00:44:09,920
always said yes, it’s fine.
So, so I threw from the US

759
00:44:10,000 –> 00:44:15,120
they’re back to I went through
the UK for then went on to the

760
00:44:15,120 –> 00:44:18,880
Soviet Union.
When it still was the Soviet

761
00:44:18,880 –> 00:44:25,600
Union, I stopped in Leningrad
and and Moscow in the middle of

762
00:44:25,600 –> 00:44:28,400
winter.
Oh my, it was freezing and, and

763
00:44:28,400 –> 00:44:32,080
even more so in Helsinki and
Finland, where, where, where the

764
00:44:32,080 –> 00:44:33,880
weather was.
I don’t know how many degrees

765
00:44:33,880 –> 00:44:36,880
below freezing, but that was
interesting.

766
00:44:37,120 –> 00:44:40,240
I, I found, I found Leningrad,
well, Saint Peters very much

767
00:44:40,240 –> 00:44:42,840
more interesting than Moscow
because it has all the, has all

768
00:44:42,840 –> 00:44:46,360
the Russian history, the, the
Hermitage, the old, the Irish

769
00:44:46,360 –> 00:44:52,200
palaces and so on.
And, and even, and the whole

770
00:44:52,640 –> 00:44:56,600
Leningrad or Saint Petersburg
extremely attractive city in, in

771
00:44:57,680 –> 00:44:59,920
particularly from a historical
perspective.

772
00:44:59,920 –> 00:45:04,720
So, so that was, that was
interesting.

773
00:45:04,960 –> 00:45:08,720
And I flew on from Russia down
to down to India and then

774
00:45:09,000 –> 00:45:11,960
stopped up in Sri Lanka.
It was Salon and then back home.

775
00:45:12,680 –> 00:45:17,120
And back to Sydney for a period
of time in the overall in your

776
00:45:17,120 –> 00:45:20,960
overall life a short time.
Yeah, that was interesting

777
00:45:20,960 –> 00:45:24,280
because I, I went back to Sydney
for and rejoined the Board of

778
00:45:24,280 –> 00:45:26,640
Closure and I was happy to be
back there.

779
00:45:26,640 –> 00:45:33,040
And then then the opportunity
came up to to be seconded to the

780
00:45:33,040 –> 00:45:36,680
IMF, the International Monetary
Fund in Washington.

781
00:45:37,400 –> 00:45:42,920
And I was offered a three month,
a three-year secondment.

782
00:45:42,920 –> 00:45:47,160
Of course, it was a bit awkward
actually, because I had to be

783
00:45:47,160 –> 00:45:50,520
very careful that I didn’t upset
the Reserve Bank.

784
00:45:50,520 –> 00:45:53,880
The Reserve Bank had been so
good to me with these training,

785
00:45:54,880 –> 00:45:59,080
all the rest of that, I just
couldn’t announce that I was

786
00:45:59,080 –> 00:46:03,440
going to take this secondment.
So I make quite sure that the

787
00:46:03,440 –> 00:46:06,600
Reserve Bank was happy and at
the time they got, the Reserve

788
00:46:06,600 –> 00:46:10,320
Bank was very liberal in the
sense he, he felt that you work

789
00:46:10,320 –> 00:46:12,880
for international organization
that’s good for Australia and so

790
00:46:12,880 –> 00:46:16,160
on.
So, so I, I again, I went to

791
00:46:16,160 –> 00:46:20,480
the, I went to the IMF with the
Reserve Bank’s blessing.

792
00:46:20,480 –> 00:46:22,400
Really they didn’t require me to
resign.

793
00:46:23,120 –> 00:46:28,080
They gave me 3, three years
leave of absence to, to work in,

794
00:46:28,760 –> 00:46:32,440
in the IMF of Washington.
So that that that gave me time

795
00:46:32,440 –> 00:46:35,560
to work out whether how I felt
about working and living in the

796
00:46:35,680 –> 00:46:38,680
in the United States.
So whereabouts was that?

797
00:46:38,760 –> 00:46:40,520
Where did you go for there for
that?

798
00:46:40,760 –> 00:46:45,720
Well, the IMF is based in, in
Washington and the the IMF, the

799
00:46:45,800 –> 00:46:49,080
International Monetary Fund is
a, is a international sort of

800
00:46:49,080 –> 00:46:55,320
financial agency where most
countries in the world are

801
00:46:55,320 –> 00:46:59,360
members.
Well, the most.

802
00:46:59,760 –> 00:47:02,920
And initially I worked in the,
in the research department of

803
00:47:02,920 –> 00:47:05,560
the IMF, But then then after
you’ve been there for a while,

804
00:47:05,560 –> 00:47:10,880
you’re, you’re, you’re, you, you
work on a particular country,

805
00:47:12,920 –> 00:47:15,600
you, you’re, and you sort of
wait with bated breath to work

806
00:47:15,600 –> 00:47:18,520
out what this country will be
because you don’t know, it could

807
00:47:18,520 –> 00:47:25,200
be anywhere, really anywhere in
the world and as placed in the

808
00:47:25,560 –> 00:47:29,960
European department or the IMF.
And then the nitty gritty, what,

809
00:47:29,960 –> 00:47:31,600
what country are you going to
work on?

810
00:47:32,280 –> 00:47:37,120
And and then then I was
astonished, actually astonished.

811
00:47:37,120 –> 00:47:39,960
And this is another case of of
God direction.

812
00:47:40,280 –> 00:47:44,960
I was astonished by being asked
whether I would like to to work

813
00:47:44,960 –> 00:47:50,240
on Israel because Israel was at
that time would not the Middle

814
00:47:50,240 –> 00:47:53,120
East department would not accept
Israel as a member.

815
00:47:53,320 –> 00:47:55,400
So Israel was actually
administered by the European

816
00:47:55,400 –> 00:47:59,320
Department of the IMF.
The economic relations were

817
00:47:59,520 –> 00:48:01,720
emissive in the European
Department.

818
00:48:02,120 –> 00:48:08,880
So, so I was my first
assignment, the country

819
00:48:08,880 –> 00:48:15,080
assignment for, for the IMF, my
first country assignment was,

820
00:48:15,240 –> 00:48:19,040
was Israel.
And that was wonderful.

821
00:48:19,040 –> 00:48:21,080
Of course, you know, I went
there many times to work.

822
00:48:21,880 –> 00:48:27,000
At the time, Israel was having
a, quite a major, a major

823
00:48:27,000 –> 00:48:29,480
economic problem.
So they were borrowing very,

824
00:48:29,480 –> 00:48:31,480
quite substantially from
different organisations,

825
00:48:31,480 –> 00:48:33,960
including the IMF.
So, so these are these were

826
00:48:33,960 –> 00:48:40,040
negotiating missions for the
loans I took from the IMF.

827
00:48:41,120 –> 00:48:46,360
But of course it gave me an A
new dimension or a new

828
00:48:46,360 –> 00:48:50,640
opportunity to to learn more
about Israel because people

829
00:48:50,640 –> 00:48:53,840
there quickly, the authorities
there quickly got the message.

830
00:48:53,840 –> 00:48:55,200
I was interested in biblical
history.

831
00:48:55,200 –> 00:48:57,920
So, so they’re very good to me
the way they took me to

832
00:48:57,920 –> 00:49:01,960
different places, you know what
during breaks, you know what

833
00:49:01,960 –> 00:49:06,360
have you walking towards
Jerusalem and so on, so on.

834
00:49:06,920 –> 00:49:12,120
So that was that was one of the
clearest indications of God

835
00:49:12,120 –> 00:49:16,680
direction working on Israel.
I was just, I didn’t ask for

836
00:49:16,680 –> 00:49:20,720
just this happened.
Amazing.

837
00:49:21,240 –> 00:49:23,400
You would have had the privilege
of being able to see the

838
00:49:23,400 –> 00:49:26,120
difference in Israel or
particularly Jerusalem, I guess

839
00:49:26,240 –> 00:49:31,000
between 1965 and then later in
the late 60s, early 70s after

840
00:49:31,000 –> 00:49:33,440
the Six Day War.
It would have been amazing to go

841
00:49:33,440 –> 00:49:35,360
back and have that different
experience.

842
00:49:35,760 –> 00:49:40,520
Well, it was, it was and and
without name dropping, without

843
00:49:40,840 –> 00:49:43,600
when I went on these missions
with the IMF, with the IMF,

844
00:49:43,600 –> 00:49:47,080
Israel, you meant the first, the
first week or so of the visits

845
00:49:47,080 –> 00:49:48,720
on 10 days.
Where?

846
00:49:48,720 –> 00:49:52,040
Where technical, where you’re
discussing the economic programs

847
00:49:52,040 –> 00:49:54,800
and so on.
The second, the second round was

848
00:49:54,800 –> 00:50:01,040
with the senior people, the
ministers where you’re where the

849
00:50:01,040 –> 00:50:04,480
team was negotiating the the
final terms of the loans.

850
00:50:05,080 –> 00:50:08,720
And that meant that, yeah, that
gave me an opportunity to, to me

851
00:50:08,720 –> 00:50:13,120
something these quite these
people who are well known, Simon

852
00:50:13,120 –> 00:50:17,400
Perez and and Nashua Dayan, they
were there, they were ministers

853
00:50:17,400 –> 00:50:20,600
of the time.
But so and ABBA Ebam, here’s the

854
00:50:20,600 –> 00:50:25,720
foreign minister.
So that was a dimension which

855
00:50:25,720 –> 00:50:27,600
would have been normally out of
reach.

856
00:50:27,600 –> 00:50:32,480
And it would say interesting
hearing on speak and even

857
00:50:32,480 –> 00:50:34,800
commencing, of course, with some
of them, quite a few of the

858
00:50:34,800 –> 00:50:38,040
meeting.
So that was a a background which

859
00:50:39,080 –> 00:50:43,520
which I valued very much.
And then incidentally on that.

860
00:50:43,520 –> 00:50:45,680
So when I was at Yale
University, it was a side, side

861
00:50:45,680 –> 00:50:47,600
issue.
When I was at Yale University,

862
00:50:48,040 –> 00:50:51,040
God of Maya’s son was in that
was in the music power and

863
00:50:51,040 –> 00:50:54,640
studying cello.
And so I always went to her

864
00:50:54,640 –> 00:50:56,680
talks.
It was very, it was very

865
00:50:56,680 –> 00:50:59,680
interesting listening to to
these leaders.

866
00:51:00,320 –> 00:51:02,520
And you realize when you hit
listen to them, you realize that

867
00:51:02,520 –> 00:51:06,120
these are just ordinary,
ordinary people on the way or

868
00:51:06,120 –> 00:51:09,120
they they gifted many respects,
obviously, but the ordinary

869
00:51:09,120 –> 00:51:12,040
people who thrust into into
important positions.

870
00:51:12,040 –> 00:51:17,520
Yeah, but that was a very nice
aspect of the of the work

871
00:51:17,520 –> 00:51:19,480
involvement.
You could meet some people which

872
00:51:19,480 –> 00:51:22,800
were which were which you
normally wouldn’t have the

873
00:51:22,800 –> 00:51:25,560
opportunity to do.
And the other point that you’ve

874
00:51:25,560 –> 00:51:29,640
very mentioned is that going
back subsequently you see the

875
00:51:29,640 –> 00:51:33,920
changes, you know, that’s that
was very that’s very

876
00:51:33,920 –> 00:51:35,280
interesting.
Can you?

877
00:51:35,880 –> 00:51:38,400
You could spend a lot of time on
this, but just for us lay

878
00:51:38,400 –> 00:51:43,520
people, briefly explain what the
IMF does and I guess why you

879
00:51:43,520 –> 00:51:45,080
were going to Israel, what you
were doing.

880
00:51:45,920 –> 00:51:48,920
And then I’m also interested in
connecting that with, you know,

881
00:51:48,920 –> 00:51:52,160
your view on the extraordinary
development of Israel as a

882
00:51:52,160 –> 00:51:56,360
nation, even financially across
those decades.

883
00:51:57,720 –> 00:51:59,600
Well, it’s, it’s an interesting
question.

884
00:51:59,600 –> 00:52:01,920
I don’t want to bore you or
listen to the details, but the,

885
00:52:02,160 –> 00:52:08,440
the IMF is, it was mainly you
can advise, so offers advice to

886
00:52:08,440 –> 00:52:11,360
all these member countries.
They every year or more, they

887
00:52:11,360 –> 00:52:14,400
assess the economic situation of
these countries and, and

888
00:52:14,400 –> 00:52:17,520
recommend actions.
Of course, these are sovereign

889
00:52:17,520 –> 00:52:20,560
governments who can do what they
like, but that the import from

890
00:52:20,560 –> 00:52:22,760
the IMF is usually take into
account quite a bit.

891
00:52:23,320 –> 00:52:27,760
So there’s the advisory side,
but the, the side which I, I was

892
00:52:27,760 –> 00:52:31,320
in, involved in more was the,
the loan negotiations.

893
00:52:31,320 –> 00:52:34,240
Because particularly the time
when I was going there for work,

894
00:52:34,680 –> 00:52:37,760
this row was not terrible
economic situation that there

895
00:52:37,760 –> 00:52:41,000
was hyperinflation, the
inflation rate was over 1000%.

896
00:52:42,440 –> 00:52:47,720
And so they were, they were
needing to borrow quite, quite

897
00:52:47,720 –> 00:52:50,800
heavily.
And so with, with lines of this

898
00:52:50,800 –> 00:52:53,080
sort, you, you have to negotiate
the terms, you know, what the

899
00:52:53,080 –> 00:52:56,080
exchange rate policy will be,
what the monetary policy would

900
00:52:56,080 –> 00:53:00,840
be or what it’s up to them in
the in the end to decide whether

901
00:53:00,840 –> 00:53:03,960
they accept the advice or not.
But it’s a negotiation or show

902
00:53:04,000 –> 00:53:07,760
back and forth.
So to determine whether the loan

903
00:53:07,760 –> 00:53:13,040
will be could go forward or not.
And as A at the time, the, as I

904
00:53:13,040 –> 00:53:15,800
say, the Israeli economy was in
very bad shape.

905
00:53:15,800 –> 00:53:21,160
In fact, hyperinflation was so
bad that the not the normal joke

906
00:53:21,160 –> 00:53:24,560
was that if you took it went
from A to B, you took the bus

907
00:53:24,560 –> 00:53:28,040
rather than taxi because the bus
you pay upfront, whereas by taxi

908
00:53:28,040 –> 00:53:31,000
you pay when you reached the
destination, right?

909
00:53:31,000 –> 00:53:32,640
Yes.
By the time you reached the

910
00:53:32,640 –> 00:53:37,920
station by but, but but taxi,
the inflation’s gone up 50%.

911
00:53:39,920 –> 00:53:47,440
So, so the IMF is a, is a, is a,
is a advisory institution and,

912
00:53:47,480 –> 00:53:51,200
and the lending authority and
under the aegis of the of the

913
00:53:51,200 –> 00:53:54,880
United Nations.
It’s it’s we, we travel around

914
00:53:54,880 –> 00:53:58,320
the UN passports, which itself
was very nice because it gave us

915
00:53:58,920 –> 00:54:01,760
benefits.
So reflecting on Israel, where

916
00:54:01,760 –> 00:54:06,480
it came from obviously in 1948
through that those troubled

917
00:54:06,480 –> 00:54:11,440
times of the 70s where reading
between the lines, they could

918
00:54:11,440 –> 00:54:14,920
have gone broke in in inverted
commas to where they are today,

919
00:54:14,920 –> 00:54:18,000
almost an economic powerhouse.
What are your thoughts on that?

920
00:54:18,760 –> 00:54:22,000
Well, that’s a very interesting
question because because Israel

921
00:54:22,000 –> 00:54:24,480
does not have great resources,
really it doesn’t.

922
00:54:24,560 –> 00:54:29,480
So I, I won’t, I’ll never get a
statement by Shahram, who at the

923
00:54:29,480 –> 00:54:32,960
time was agricultural
agricultural minister.

924
00:54:32,960 –> 00:54:36,360
He was explaining that the
resource constraints in Israel

925
00:54:36,680 –> 00:54:40,720
and he was saying that Israel
has a, an economic advantage in

926
00:54:40,720 –> 00:54:45,200
oranges and soldiers.
It was an unforgettable comment.

927
00:54:45,600 –> 00:54:48,200
They haven’t.
And then when you reflect Israel

928
00:54:48,200 –> 00:54:51,920
does not have, doesn’t have oil
resources like like the Arabian

929
00:54:51,920 –> 00:54:54,840
states.
It’s just, it does not so, and

930
00:54:54,840 –> 00:54:57,480
that’s one of the future things
that will happen when the Lord

931
00:54:57,480 –> 00:54:59,440
returns.
It will be, it will flourish

932
00:54:59,440 –> 00:55:02,880
like the desert will flourish.
It’s a country with very limited

933
00:55:02,880 –> 00:55:06,520
resources and the, but it’s had
an extraordinary growth because

934
00:55:06,520 –> 00:55:08,800
the, the people are so
technically skilled that they,

935
00:55:08,880 –> 00:55:12,800
they developed all these
technical industries, these high

936
00:55:12,800 –> 00:55:15,360
tech industries, you know, where
they have the, the wonderful

937
00:55:15,360 –> 00:55:18,800
expertise and they, and the, the
growth of the country, the

938
00:55:18,920 –> 00:55:21,800
economic growth of the country
has been quite remarkable given

939
00:55:21,800 –> 00:55:25,120
the, given the general paucity
you, you think of Israel

940
00:55:25,120 –> 00:55:28,600
relative to the Arabian states,
which are awash with oil and all

941
00:55:28,600 –> 00:55:32,080
that.
Israel doesn’t really have very

942
00:55:32,080 –> 00:55:34,040
much and not in this
dispensation.

943
00:55:35,080 –> 00:55:37,720
And so it’s, it’s quite
miraculous.

944
00:55:37,720 –> 00:55:40,280
I think you’re saying that
they’ve done so well and the,

945
00:55:40,560 –> 00:55:42,440
and the growth rate is very
high.

946
00:55:42,440 –> 00:55:45,760
And how they ever managed to
financiate event spending is

947
00:55:46,160 –> 00:55:49,720
beyond me because they get a lot
of external help on that.

948
00:55:49,720 –> 00:55:53,320
But, but the defence spending
for a small country of only

949
00:55:53,320 –> 00:55:56,000
about 9 million people is, is
extremely onerous.

950
00:55:56,000 –> 00:56:00,000
So, so it’s, it is somewhat of
an economic miracle I would say,

951
00:56:01,600 –> 00:56:06,200
and a very fascinating case of
again, I’ve got the reckon.

952
00:56:06,640 –> 00:56:09,240
Well, you didn’t know it at the
time, but when you moved to

953
00:56:09,240 –> 00:56:11,640
Washington, you were going to be
there for I think it was nearly

954
00:56:11,640 –> 00:56:13,520
50 years, was it?
Yeah, yeah.

955
00:56:13,520 –> 00:56:17,360
So after the three years I
mentioned, I, I was there

956
00:56:17,600 –> 00:56:19,520
initially advised a common from
the Reserve Bank.

957
00:56:19,640 –> 00:56:22,720
After the end of three years, I
just had to either decide to go

958
00:56:22,720 –> 00:56:27,200
back to the Reserve Bank, return
to Sydney or to stay on and

959
00:56:27,200 –> 00:56:29,000
watch it.
And that was a, that was a

960
00:56:29,000 –> 00:56:31,520
major, that was a major
decision.

961
00:56:32,560 –> 00:56:37,000
I eventually signed my, my
resignation letter from the

962
00:56:37,000 –> 00:56:40,680
Reserve Bank and with a sort of
a trembling hand really, because

963
00:56:40,680 –> 00:56:43,440
that was, they’ve been
absolutely wonderful for me and

964
00:56:43,440 –> 00:56:46,800
to me and I made quite sure they
were happy that I was doing

965
00:56:46,800 –> 00:56:48,440
this.
I didn’t, I didn’t want to do

966
00:56:48,440 –> 00:56:54,000
anything which would upset them.
And so I, I, I resigned from the

967
00:56:54,000 –> 00:56:57,440
Zerbank and joined the permanent
staff of the IMF and was with

968
00:56:57,440 –> 00:57:02,400
them for 30 years.
So a long time really, from 1971

969
00:57:02,400 –> 00:57:05,840
to 2001.
And then that gave you

970
00:57:05,840 –> 00:57:10,400
extraordinary opportunities to
get involved in in Africa and

971
00:57:10,440 –> 00:57:13,000
the subcontinent as well.
Tell us about some of those

972
00:57:13,000 –> 00:57:16,280
experiences.
Well, as I mentioned earlier, I

973
00:57:16,280 –> 00:57:18,800
was initially in the, initially
I was in the research

974
00:57:18,800 –> 00:57:20,560
department.
Then I went to the, as I said to

975
00:57:20,560 –> 00:57:24,160
the European Department that I,
I worked on Israel, but then,

976
00:57:24,160 –> 00:57:29,640
then I went to many missions on
all over Europe, Portugal,

977
00:57:29,640 –> 00:57:35,880
Greece, Spain, Malta, Finland,
Yugoslavia, Romania, some of

978
00:57:35,880 –> 00:57:39,160
them several times.
And oddly enough, South Africa.

979
00:57:39,640 –> 00:57:42,320
I was still on the European
Obama because nobody else would

980
00:57:42,320 –> 00:57:46,040
have South Africa.
So, so I went on missions to

981
00:57:46,040 –> 00:57:51,200
South Africa as well.
I suppose, I’m not sure, almost

982
00:57:51,200 –> 00:57:53,600
20 years, I guess on the
European Obama, which is very

983
00:57:53,600 –> 00:57:58,040
interesting because visiting all
these countries trips would be

984
00:57:58,040 –> 00:58:00,160
about two or three weeks at a
time.

985
00:58:00,160 –> 00:58:02,720
You know, these negotiating
trips were two or three weeks at

986
00:58:02,760 –> 00:58:05,040
a time.
So you, they weren’t long

987
00:58:05,040 –> 00:58:07,800
protracted absences from
Washington, from home there.

988
00:58:08,000 –> 00:58:13,200
That was sort of, they were not,
not terribly intrusive even from

989
00:58:13,200 –> 00:58:18,640
an ecclesial point of view.
But of course, I made good use

990
00:58:18,640 –> 00:58:28,760
of visiting ecclesias I in
Germany and Finland and most of

991
00:58:28,760 –> 00:58:31,800
these places in South Africa are
mostly places I visited

992
00:58:31,800 –> 00:58:37,480
ecclesias and, and some of the
some of my mission leaders are

993
00:58:37,480 –> 00:58:42,560
the the heads of the sections
that they knew that I had a

994
00:58:42,560 –> 00:58:46,440
scriptural interest.
And on Sundays, they would

995
00:58:46,440 –> 00:58:49,560
never, I found this quite
touching actually, that, that

996
00:58:49,840 –> 00:58:54,680
that’d always free me on, on
Sunday mornings to go to a local

997
00:58:54,680 –> 00:58:57,160
or cliche service, particularly
when I was going to Africa, when

998
00:58:57,160 –> 00:59:00,320
there’s so many, so much cliche
activity that they don’t, they

999
00:59:00,320 –> 00:59:05,320
don’t, they’d often give me the
freedom to, to visit the cliches

1000
00:59:05,320 –> 00:59:08,880
and have time off from work for
a few hours.

1001
00:59:10,120 –> 00:59:15,800
So then after, after all those
years in European apt I, I

1002
00:59:15,800 –> 00:59:17,440
transferred to the African
apartment.

1003
00:59:18,160 –> 00:59:21,800
And that was, that was
absolutely wonderful,

1004
00:59:22,520 –> 00:59:25,280
unforgettable.
Because I, in that particular

1005
00:59:25,280 –> 00:59:27,800
case, I was asked, what country
would you like to work on?

1006
00:59:27,800 –> 00:59:29,480
And I said I’d love to work on
Malawi.

1007
00:59:29,720 –> 00:59:35,320
And Malawi at that time, of
course, was, was was was growing

1008
00:59:35,320 –> 00:59:39,480
leaps and bounds occasionally.
And so I went to Malawi many,

1009
00:59:39,480 –> 00:59:43,320
many times and Mozambique and
Zimbabwe and.

1010
00:59:44,040 –> 00:59:48,480
And you’ve seen that, seen the
gospel message grow amazingly in

1011
00:59:48,480 –> 00:59:50,920
those years.
Well, the most amazing was

1012
00:59:50,960 –> 00:59:55,920
Malawi Malawi’s as you probably
know from the magazines, Malawi

1013
00:59:55,920 –> 01:00:00,800
now has a Christopian membership
of about 10,000 I think and then

1014
01:00:00,800 –> 01:00:03,360
and the ALS story for
Mozambique.

1015
01:00:04,560 –> 01:00:07,000
The current membership of
Mozambique Ecclesia is about

1016
01:00:07,000 –> 01:00:10,120
11,000.
And when you go to Malawi,

1017
01:00:11,040 –> 01:00:13,360
driving around Malawi, it’s just
like driving around Birmingham

1018
01:00:13,360 –> 01:00:14,880
really.
You drive around there’s,

1019
01:00:15,240 –> 01:00:18,080
there’s a, there’s a glacier
here and the glacier there,

1020
01:00:18,760 –> 01:00:20,640
another village, there’s another
creature there.

1021
01:00:20,920 –> 01:00:23,280
And of course I went to got a
lot of these eclipses and I

1022
01:00:23,280 –> 01:00:26,920
found that totally charming.
Just the most of them.

1023
01:00:26,920 –> 01:00:30,080
You walk through the cornfields
or they’re out in the rural

1024
01:00:30,080 –> 01:00:33,560
areas you and you go to
unpretentious sort of mud Hut,

1025
01:00:34,560 –> 01:00:39,640
but and sitting in a African
crucial service.

1026
01:00:39,640 –> 01:00:42,960
I, I found it exceptionally
uplifting.

1027
01:00:43,080 –> 01:00:46,080
Just wonderful really.
And so I’ve always had a special

1028
01:00:46,080 –> 01:00:50,320
affection for Malawi, which is a
very, I must say, a very

1029
01:00:50,320 –> 01:00:55,400
biblical country in a way.
And and and notably so even even

1030
01:00:55,400 –> 01:00:59,000
in business life, I remember
quite well some of the speeches

1031
01:00:59,480 –> 01:01:02,320
after the speeches get them
business speeches that that they

1032
01:01:02,720 –> 01:01:05,960
allow in central bank governor
or something or other would cite

1033
01:01:05,960 –> 01:01:11,880
something from make a point and
and cite them or reinforce the

1034
01:01:11,960 –> 01:01:17,560
by some scriptural quotation.
And I remember very well one

1035
01:01:17,640 –> 01:01:21,680
occasion where the mission
leader asked me he had to

1036
01:01:21,680 –> 01:01:24,240
prepare some after dinner after
dinner response.

1037
01:01:24,520 –> 01:01:27,280
He wanted to make a point.
He said, Ron, can you can you

1038
01:01:27,280 –> 01:01:30,600
find me a scriptural quotation
which will support the right

1039
01:01:30,720 –> 01:01:32,840
support the point I’m making
whatever it was.

1040
01:01:33,680 –> 01:01:39,480
So I did that and and when, when
when buses roll down the street

1041
01:01:39,480 –> 01:01:42,880
in Malawi, they have signs on
the side.

1042
01:01:42,880 –> 01:01:46,800
You know, God is good and you
get off the bus and they’re

1043
01:01:46,800 –> 01:01:49,120
playing God and be with you.
Join me again.

1044
01:01:49,400 –> 01:01:52,880
It’s a very it’s a remarkably
religious country or Christian

1045
01:01:52,880 –> 01:01:56,520
country in that sense.
And, and because of the, the

1046
01:01:57,640 –> 01:02:01,120
fascinating influence of David
Livingstone, you know, I’m sure

1047
01:02:01,120 –> 01:02:05,280
you read the history of
Livingston, the great explorer,

1048
01:02:05,600 –> 01:02:09,480
His influence on that area is,
is, is right, comes right down

1049
01:02:09,480 –> 01:02:12,840
to modern times.
But, but it’s, it’s very

1050
01:02:12,840 –> 01:02:16,080
fascinating to me to see the
Malawian and the Mozambican

1051
01:02:16,720 –> 01:02:21,560
exclusion particularly doing so
extraordinarily well.

1052
01:02:21,920 –> 01:02:24,520
And the other area which we need
to talk about is the

1053
01:02:24,520 –> 01:02:27,400
subcontinent, India and
Bangladesh in particular.

1054
01:02:28,000 –> 01:02:30,080
Well, that, that’s right, that’s
coming towards now the end of my

1055
01:02:30,080 –> 01:02:33,280
career with the IMF as you, when
you’ve been in the IMF for quite

1056
01:02:33,280 –> 01:02:37,800
a long time, you, you become
eligible for what they call a

1057
01:02:37,880 –> 01:02:40,880
resident representative Osama.
So in other words, you, you

1058
01:02:40,880 –> 01:02:42,880
represent the IMF in that
country.

1059
01:02:43,400 –> 01:02:48,720
And they’re not all that easy
to, to get assigned to, but

1060
01:02:48,720 –> 01:02:52,240
they’re attractive in many ways.
So I, I didn’t want to finish

1061
01:02:52,240 –> 01:02:55,360
the IMF career without that,
that sort of experience.

1062
01:02:55,720 –> 01:02:57,400
I really wanted to go to Sri
Lanka.

1063
01:02:57,400 –> 01:03:01,080
Actually, I wanted to take the
IMF position there as a small

1064
01:03:01,080 –> 01:03:04,960
office located in the country
for two or three years, not

1065
01:03:04,960 –> 01:03:06,360
travelling to and from
Washington.

1066
01:03:06,360 –> 01:03:09,320
You’re actually located in the
country, but two or three years.

1067
01:03:09,320 –> 01:03:11,840
And I wanted to go to Sri Lanka,
but it wasn’t available.

1068
01:03:12,000 –> 01:03:16,280
The only, the only option I
could take was, was in

1069
01:03:16,280 –> 01:03:19,280
Bangladesh.
That didn’t enthuse me too much.

1070
01:03:19,280 –> 01:03:23,160
Being a Muslim country, I
thought the, the prospects of

1071
01:03:24,200 –> 01:03:29,560
being fruitful in a missionary
sense wouldn’t be all that

1072
01:03:29,560 –> 01:03:31,960
promising.
I knew that work wise I knew it

1073
01:03:31,960 –> 01:03:34,480
would be very interesting.
But but then I suddenly realised

1074
01:03:34,560 –> 01:03:38,360
that maybe the Lord’s telling
you, you know, somewhere which

1075
01:03:38,360 –> 01:03:41,440
you haven’t thought of before.
So I accepted the position in

1076
01:03:41,440 –> 01:03:45,760
Bangladesh and three had three
wonderful, wonderful years.

1077
01:03:45,760 –> 01:03:49,840
They really just work wise.
It was extremely interesting

1078
01:03:50,280 –> 01:03:53,440
working there on the economic
issues of Bangladesh.

1079
01:03:53,840 –> 01:03:56,920
But then having an opportunity
to witness and especially

1080
01:03:56,920 –> 01:04:00,680
witness in a country where which
is basically Muslim, it was a

1081
01:04:00,680 –> 01:04:06,120
challenge, but it’s it’s another
growth, spiritual growth

1082
01:04:06,120 –> 01:04:08,760
experience.
And we have a number of

1083
01:04:08,760 –> 01:04:10,320
residents, sisters in Bangladesh
now.

1084
01:04:10,600 –> 01:04:13,040
Yes we do.
It’s a yes we do.

1085
01:04:13,040 –> 01:04:17,240
We have 3, three main Eclis in
English now it’s, it’s a

1086
01:04:17,240 –> 01:04:21,080
difficult country.
It’s heavily populated and, and

1087
01:04:21,440 –> 01:04:24,400
it’s not easy to witness there
because you can’t, you can’t

1088
01:04:24,400 –> 01:04:27,400
give out literature.
Of course, in a Muslim country,

1089
01:04:27,560 –> 01:04:31,960
lots of things you can’t do.
But the long and short of I, I

1090
01:04:31,960 –> 01:04:34,920
didn’t know how to go about this
because the work wise, I was

1091
01:04:34,920 –> 01:04:38,240
very busy.
But I, I how to, how to witness

1092
01:04:38,920 –> 01:04:40,600
the first few weeks.
I was a bit puzzled.

1093
01:04:40,600 –> 01:04:43,520
How am I going to do anything
useful here when you can’t give

1094
01:04:43,520 –> 01:04:45,640
out this, which you can’t do
this, you can’t do that.

1095
01:04:45,880 –> 01:04:49,360
And I looked through the, I got
an idea, a God directed idea, I

1096
01:04:49,360 –> 01:04:52,160
think to look through the
telephone book and I, I saw two

1097
01:04:52,680 –> 01:04:55,800
reference on the Bible.
One was Bible Society of

1098
01:04:55,800 –> 01:04:57,560
Bangladesh.
Another one was Bible student

1099
01:04:57,840 –> 01:05:00,880
Fellowship of Bangladesh.
So I rang the number of Bible

1100
01:05:00,880 –> 01:05:04,120
student culture of Bangladesh.
And, and so I’d like to have a

1101
01:05:04,120 –> 01:05:05,760
chat to you about what you’re
doing here.

1102
01:05:06,480 –> 01:05:12,240
So I went out there to see them
and I think they found it rather

1103
01:05:12,760 –> 01:05:16,480
unusual for a foreigner, A
diplomat, to so be showing

1104
01:05:16,480 –> 01:05:20,120
interest in their activities.
And they asked me, you know

1105
01:05:20,120 –> 01:05:24,600
what, my background, I gave all
the Christopher background.

1106
01:05:24,600 –> 01:05:27,680
I didn’t hide anything.
I, I said we’re not mainstream

1107
01:05:28,640 –> 01:05:31,200
ortho Christianity at all, but
we were very keen Bible

1108
01:05:31,200 –> 01:05:33,640
students.
And then after a week or two,

1109
01:05:33,640 –> 01:05:37,320
they said, would you like to
lead one of our studies here?

1110
01:05:38,400 –> 01:05:39,080
Oh.
Wow.

1111
01:05:39,240 –> 01:05:41,480
And and they asked me what, what
have you been studying lately?

1112
01:05:41,480 –> 01:05:44,000
When I said I’ve been studying
the Acts of the Apostles, and

1113
01:05:44,240 –> 01:05:47,600
the Acts of the Apostles I think
is a wonderful book where you

1114
01:05:47,600 –> 01:05:50,480
can just you don’t seem as
though you’re imposing A

1115
01:05:50,480 –> 01:05:52,800
doctrinal view.
You just go through the book.

1116
01:05:52,800 –> 01:05:54,160
And what did Peter say about
this?

1117
01:05:54,160 –> 01:05:55,920
And what?
Yeah, also something else.

1118
01:05:56,240 –> 01:05:59,400
Let the apostles tell the story.
That, that them speak and that

1119
01:05:59,400 –> 01:06:04,440
that was, that was very
remarkable because the response

1120
01:06:04,440 –> 01:06:07,760
I have from the students, they,
they, they said, you know, can

1121
01:06:07,760 –> 01:06:12,240
we meet outside the classes, you
know, have additional classes.

1122
01:06:12,240 –> 01:06:16,960
So, so anyway, I’ll continue
that to do these classes at the

1123
01:06:17,160 –> 01:06:22,920
Bible student fellowship.
But but one by one, my, a number

1124
01:06:22,920 –> 01:06:24,800
of them came to my home, the IMF
home.

1125
01:06:24,800 –> 01:06:31,280
There was which and from that
the the early ones were

1126
01:06:31,280 –> 01:06:33,160
baptized.
That led to the baptism of quite

1127
01:06:33,160 –> 01:06:36,520
a few.
And then that led to others, you

1128
01:06:36,520 –> 01:06:38,280
know, family connections and
things like that.

1129
01:06:38,440 –> 01:06:41,440
So the preaching was there.
It wasn’t, none of it was by

1130
01:06:42,800 –> 01:06:47,360
advertisement or it was all but
basically by word of mouth.

1131
01:06:47,800 –> 01:06:51,240
And that was very exciting
because it was just another yet

1132
01:06:51,240 –> 01:06:55,760
one more answer of prayer.
And so I, I still have the

1133
01:06:55,760 –> 01:07:00,080
greatest affection to it for the
folks in Bangladesh, you know,

1134
01:07:00,080 –> 01:07:02,920
they, they need our prayers.
It’s not a, it’s not an easy

1135
01:07:02,920 –> 01:07:05,360
country at all.
It’s very congested and

1136
01:07:05,800 –> 01:07:09,000
difficult and economic problems
are plenty.

1137
01:07:09,760 –> 01:07:13,320
But we’ve got some faithful,
we’ve got some very faithful

1138
01:07:13,320 –> 01:07:16,880
members there now.
An extraordinary opportunity

1139
01:07:16,880 –> 01:07:21,040
that you had, but the time had
to come to an end because you

1140
01:07:21,040 –> 01:07:25,240
had a a forced retirement.
You were a compulsory

1141
01:07:25,240 –> 01:07:27,760
retirement, as it was.
Yeah, well, that’s right.

1142
01:07:27,760 –> 01:07:32,080
When, when the IMF, when you’re
601065, you, you have to retire.

1143
01:07:32,080 –> 01:07:37,360
So that’s it.
And I didn’t mind if it’d been a

1144
01:07:38,200 –> 01:07:40,320
that’s another stage of life,
you know, that was it.

1145
01:07:40,320 –> 01:07:46,240
I’d had a particularly
fulfilling employment which led

1146
01:07:46,240 –> 01:07:49,920
all sorts of directions,
especially I thought which never

1147
01:07:50,160 –> 01:07:51,880
never envisaged.
None of it was planned.

1148
01:07:51,880 –> 01:07:56,240
It all happened and that’s why I
feel they the the whole issue of

1149
01:07:56,240 –> 01:08:00,040
God direction is so important.
Not none of that was planned.

1150
01:08:00,040 –> 01:08:03,640
It was just happened happened,
happened one after another and

1151
01:08:03,800 –> 01:08:08,400
and that’s one that just led to
it just led to one spiritual

1152
01:08:08,400 –> 01:08:11,560
opportunity after another.
Then yeah, retirement came yes.

1153
01:08:11,560 –> 01:08:14,560
And I stayed on in the US for a
while.

1154
01:08:15,400 –> 01:08:16,880
What brought you back to
Australia?

1155
01:08:17,359 –> 01:08:19,680
Yes.
I stayed on the US because I I

1156
01:08:19,680 –> 01:08:23,200
enjoyed a casual life there very
much and I knew many brother

1157
01:08:23,200 –> 01:08:26,800
than sisters and and I also did
quite a bit of travelling

1158
01:08:27,840 –> 01:08:30,040
because in North America you
have more chances to go to

1159
01:08:30,040 –> 01:08:33,359
Britain and that more more
easily than Australia.

1160
01:08:33,359 –> 01:08:36,960
But but when you when the years
climb, you’ve got to think of

1161
01:08:36,960 –> 01:08:41,560
the the wisdom of things.
And so I I thought it was hard

1162
01:08:41,560 –> 01:08:43,319
time to come back to my
hometown.

1163
01:08:43,319 –> 01:08:49,359
So that led eventually to return
to to Adelaide, my hometown.

1164
01:08:49,359 –> 01:08:50,720
And then we have the full
circle.

1165
01:08:50,880 –> 01:08:52,960
Yeah, we come.
We come back to where you

1166
01:08:52,960 –> 01:08:55,760
belong.
As you look back on your life,

1167
01:08:56,359 –> 01:08:59,920
what’s a take away message?
What’s 1 of the the most

1168
01:08:59,920 –> 01:09:02,520
important reflections you can
share with us?

1169
01:09:02,640 –> 01:09:06,080
I, I do think it’s a question
of, it’s an issue really of how

1170
01:09:06,080 –> 01:09:08,120
the Lord directs you at the
time.

1171
01:09:08,120 –> 01:09:12,080
You don’t often see it that way,
but in retrospect, you can see

1172
01:09:12,080 –> 01:09:14,680
it.
You’re meant to do this or

1173
01:09:14,680 –> 01:09:18,240
you’re meant to go to India or
you’re meant to go to the US and

1174
01:09:18,240 –> 01:09:21,399
it turns out to be open up
vistas of as you haven’t even

1175
01:09:21,399 –> 01:09:22,560
thought about before.
Really.

1176
01:09:23,200 –> 01:09:26,319
My feeling is, I don’t know
whether you agree with me on

1177
01:09:26,319 –> 01:09:30,000
this.
I feel that the law directs our

1178
01:09:30,000 –> 01:09:33,040
lives much more than we
sometimes acknowledge.

1179
01:09:33,640 –> 01:09:36,080
And, and that’s something that
you see in retrospect, you see

1180
01:09:36,080 –> 01:09:38,840
it more when you’re older.
You can look back, you know, you

1181
01:09:38,840 –> 01:09:41,640
can see, well, that was
remarkable that you’re working

1182
01:09:41,640 –> 01:09:44,760
on Israel as a remarkable, but
it just all happened.

1183
01:09:44,840 –> 01:09:50,760
So I, I just have a strong
feeling that that the, the, the

1184
01:09:50,760 –> 01:09:54,160
life is like a flowing stream.
And, but I think the Lord is in

1185
01:09:54,160 –> 01:09:58,120
that flowing stream that guides
and shapes you and leads you

1186
01:09:58,120 –> 01:10:05,920
and, and opens up opportunities
for you, which it turned out to

1187
01:10:05,920 –> 01:10:09,400
be evidence of, of, of
providential gardens.

1188
01:10:11,640 –> 01:10:13,800
Sometimes we don’t talk about
that too much and we’re

1189
01:10:14,000 –> 01:10:19,200
sometimes a bit disinclined even
to talk about, about testimonies

1190
01:10:19,200 –> 01:10:22,400
and this sort of thing.
And that language is probably

1191
01:10:22,400 –> 01:10:26,320
not the best.
But I think more discussion

1192
01:10:26,320 –> 01:10:30,280
about how the Lord leads us and
will lead us is is very

1193
01:10:31,120 –> 01:10:36,280
important for faithful service.
I don’t know whether you agree

1194
01:10:36,280 –> 01:10:37,240
on that.
That’s.

1195
01:10:37,680 –> 01:10:40,600
I think what seems evident to me
is you.

1196
01:10:40,760 –> 01:10:45,040
You had a great foundation in
terms of your outlook on life,

1197
01:10:45,040 –> 01:10:48,720
your biblical outlook, and you
allowed God to work in your

1198
01:10:48,720 –> 01:10:50,600
life.
Well, do you give that?

1199
01:10:50,600 –> 01:10:54,560
You just give the Lord thanks.
And you realise when you get

1200
01:10:54,560 –> 01:10:56,600
older it’s quite short.
Really.

1201
01:10:56,600 –> 01:10:59,280
That goes by quick, pretty
quickly.

1202
01:10:59,280 –> 01:11:01,360
And you, yeah, want to waste
time.

1203
01:11:01,840 –> 01:11:06,000
We can be real procrastinators
waiting for this and waiting for

1204
01:11:06,000 –> 01:11:08,160
that.
Sometimes the Lord is guarding

1205
01:11:08,160 –> 01:11:11,440
us and we need to respond very
quickly.

1206
01:11:12,440 –> 01:11:15,720
Because when you essentially
when you get in beyond into well

1207
01:11:15,720 –> 01:11:18,840
into retirement years, you
realize that the life is just

1208
01:11:18,840 –> 01:11:21,560
like it is a vapor.
It’s just it’s just come and

1209
01:11:21,560 –> 01:11:24,400
gone.
And so that that means that you

1210
01:11:24,400 –> 01:11:28,640
one has to be make good use of
the four score years or whatever

1211
01:11:28,640 –> 01:11:31,480
it might happen to be.
It’s, it’s a limited, it’s quite

1212
01:11:31,480 –> 01:11:35,000
a limited brokerage, which means
that every moment has to be

1213
01:11:35,240 –> 01:11:39,080
thought through carefully as
much as we can and and and not

1214
01:11:39,080 –> 01:11:42,160
just wasted.
Ron, thanks very much for

1215
01:11:42,160 –> 01:11:43,640
joining Wilderness
Conversations.

1216
01:11:43,840 –> 01:11:45,240
It’s a pleasure.
It’s a pleasure to be with you.