326: Tom Peel – Convergence & Coherence

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Welcome to good Chris Selfian
talks.

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I’m Levi.
I’m Chris.

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I’m Jason.
And I’m Brian, thank you for

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joining us this week.
On this podcast, we select one

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talk a week to help us get the
Bible in our Daily News feed.

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Each week.
We post a talk that we previewed

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from suggestions sent in by
listeners from around the world.

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Then we record a short intro
beforehand as a personalized

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recommendation to you on why we
are sharing the talk.

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And now let’s talk more about
this week’s talk.

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This week’s talk is an
exhortation by Brother Tom Peel,

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given at the Oxford Ecclesia in
the UK this year 2024.

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This talk was a really excellent
exhortation about listening and

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kind of the grace and the
requirement to listen the show

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of love and listening and how
that really defines ecclesial

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life.
But where I found this to be

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particularly hard hitting for
me, and maybe it’s something

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just because it’s something I’ve
been thinking about is how this

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applies to how we listen online
or on Zoom.

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And he kind of just mentioned it
a couple times, but and then at

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the end, but this principle that
he’s expanding on, I think I

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think he’s correct in saying
that it’s much more difficult to

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keep the principle of truly
listening in a in a loving and

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kind of ecclesial life manner on
Zoom.

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So anyways, this was a great
excitation.

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Really was really, really
interesting and for me and

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really helpful for something
I’ve been thinking about.

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Brother Tom has his own podcast
feed called from the platform in

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which he posted this excitation.
The podcast has been dormant for

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a while, but there are some he
did some really interesting

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episodes a couple years ago
about listening.

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Actually, it’s kind of, I guess
maybe the, the, the roots of

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this topic.
And I definitely suggest

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checking those out.
I can’t, I actually, I’m not

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sure I listen to all of them
myself.

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So I’m not a not the greatest
listener, but but I really

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enjoyed enjoyed when he was
posting those a couple years

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ago.
So anyways, here is coherence

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and convergence.
The word convergence is the kind

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of the top of my page here.
That’s kind of similar to

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harmony, isn’t it?
We tried to converge our voices.

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We did it better than that last
one that that idea of bringing

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together and training ourselves
to hold space for separate parts

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that kind of come together.
And often with convergence,

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there’s a coherence, there’s
beauty, there’s a way of reality

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to it.
I have several senses.

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I, I can see this.
I can touch it.

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I can hear it, I can taste it.
All those things converge to me

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to know that this is real.
I’m not holding an illusion,

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something that’s deluding me.
If I went went, I’ll be like,

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what?
What’s going on that’s mad?

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Like this strange like thing
that doesn’t make sense would

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have happened that there’d be
this dissonance here.

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And humans are wired to find
coherence and and when things

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converge, yeah.
When things don’t align, when

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they should, we have a
dissonance similar with harmony.

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When that.
Well, that note wasn’t, wasn’t

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right.
There’s a distance there,

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attention.
And we strive to seek a

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resolution for it.
This pursuit of coherence.

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It’s, it’s not just an
intellectual thing.

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It’s it’s a deeply emotional and
spiritual thing.

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And where pattern recognises as
human we’re looking, we’re

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looking for that convergence and
things all the time.

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So we can say, OK, that’s
normal, that’s normal, that’s

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normal.
Now I can get on with this.

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If I know a tiger broke in to
the hole, I’m like, right, that

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needs attending to now.
OK, I need to forget what I’m

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doing here.
I need to break my frame of

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relevance and go, that’s more
relevant.

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We need, we need to run away or
whatever it might be.

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This convergence that we find,
this pattern recognition, leads

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us to great insight and an
ability to move and have agency

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in the world, but it can also
lead us to have self deception

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in many ways.
Maybe you’ve all seen the video

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of the people playing basketball
and the gorilla walks across.

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You’re training yourself to see
what’s convergent within the

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within the question you’ve been
asked, counting how many times

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the ball gets passed.
And then you delude yourself

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when, when, when this monkey
walks and you don’t see it.

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There’s this kind of great
delusion that happens.

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I imagine you’re thinking, I
hope this talk has a point of

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convergence.
It makes sense.

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It has a point to it.
So we think there’s a point to

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it where it comes together and
it’s relevant for you.

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I’m going to go off on a tangent
first, then hopefully bring it

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back, all right?
But as Christadelphians, I feel

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like we find things like cross
references in Scripture really

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profound.
When we see patterns, echoes of

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Genesis in Revelation, prophecy
fulfilled by Christ, it feels

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like we’re uncovering a deeper
layer of reality, something to

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Orient us by.
It’s satisfying because it’s not

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just knowledge.
It’s the sense of alignment with

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this ancient book and what we
believe to be the Word of God, a

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glimpse at his eternal plan.
But what happens when what we

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expect to align doesn’t?
We have this conflict, this

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dissonance, and that’s normally
the place where we try and push

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away.
But that’s often the place where

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growth happens and we find a a
moment of expansion.

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Anybody here enjoy video games
that all the young people have

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left?
But as humans, we, we, we think

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about video games.
They, they create a, a

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compelling world of coherence.
You have a goal, a journey to

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navigate, a sense of agency.
Your actions shape the outcome.

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Failure matters because it
straps your sense of coherence,

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but it’s also a part of the
process.

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When your little avatar dies,
you have to restart.

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But when you restart, you’ve got
a deeper level of how to go

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through that, that that level
again.

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The first time you attempt the
puzzle, the solution might seem

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obvious, But if that doesn’t
work, that moment of dissonance

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forces you to reassess.
Then you get, ah, a new insight.

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The lever opens the bookshelf
and the, you know, the, the door

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opens because of the, the spade
and not the key.

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Something like, I don’t know,
something like that in in in

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these computer games where it’s
like you have to work out what

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in your itinerary might open the
next thing and unlock for you.

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And it’s like aha moments and
you go, you move through a new

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progress.
Computer games have really built

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almost like a an insight
generator that is like

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compelling for a lot of people.
You align with the game’s deeper

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logic.
This isn’t just entertainment,

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it’s a it’s a microcosm of how
we grow in real life.

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When we encounter obstacles in
work or relationships or faith,

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it’s the struggle to align
followed by moments of insight

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that creates meaning for us.
We, we find harmony to be

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meaningful, don’t we?
And when you think about that in

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a philosophical sense, it’s
like, why what?

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Like what’s this?
What’s this convergence doing

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that is meaningful to us?
There’s something about the way

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things come together and cohere
that as humans we find deeply

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meaningful.
There’s a phrase that’s I think

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become more popular.
I don’t know if anyone has heard

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of people entering the flow
state.

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You’ve probably all experienced
it.

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It’s like when you’re deeply
engrossed in something that is

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coming together and providing
you with like a puzzle.

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It’s like, you know, you start
with a disparate array of pieces

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and then you get more like, oh,
this, this.

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Ah, yeah, yeah, yeah.
And you get that kind of like

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movement through something that
kind of starts to become fluid

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as you’re going it.
It maybe begins as kind of a a

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bit clunky.
If we were to practice that song

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some more, we’d get into
alignment and it would flow and

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you’d be in a in a different
state.

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And that’s where kind of time
starts kind of moving away from

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you and you, you realize you’ve
been doing something for hours

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and you break out of it and Rez,
you haven’t done anything for

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dinner.
So, yeah, the in a flow state,

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we’re deeply connected with what
we’re doing, whether it’s

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solving a problem, creating our
or even praying.

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There’s a rhythm of challenge
and insight that feels

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compelling and purposeful.
It’s not so boring.

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We give up with it.
And it’s not so challenging that

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we give up with it.
It’s kind of got this medium

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places.
What’s that phrase in education,

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namely the zone of proximal
development, if you’re a

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teacher.
OK, Zone of proximal

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development, if anyone’s in
education, I don’t know, it’s

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that place where the the lesson
isn’t so hard.

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You’ve lost the interest of the
class.

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It’s not so easy that they’re
like, this is so easy.

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It’s got that area of
development in it, that growth.

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And that’s that’s this idea of
flow state.

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Think about the times you felt
this in your spiritual life,

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perhaps during a Bible study
when a verse suddenly

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illuminates a theme or during
prayer when your thoughts and

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emotions seem to click into
place.

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These moments aren’t just
rewarding.

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They feel like a taste of the
divine.

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There’s a coherent a convergence
here and thinking about the Old

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Testament and to to Timothy will
will come on to because I think

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at the end of to Timothy,
there’s a, there’s a, some great

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instructions on how to hold
space for this.

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The rituals of the Old Testament
priests might seem rigid to us,

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but they’re created and
contained an, an arena for

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achieving flow.
Priestly tasks were a

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convergence of physical,
spiritual and symbolic.

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Every detail of the law, the
design of the Tabernacle,

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specific sacrifices, the timings
of festivals was a way of

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aligning people with God’s
holiness, a rhythm that people

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would have very much engaged
with and would have been

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meaningful.
They’d have seen the betweenness

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of things when when stuff was
happening.

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For us, it’s it’s kind of like
just static instructions, but

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when you’re living it out,
you’re seeing it all kind of

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converging, it becoming a
harmony and something

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meaningful.
The priest had to engage fully

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with precision and intention,
intention to create coherence

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between heaven and earth in that
sacred space.

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The repetitive yet purposeful
acts allowed them to find a

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rhythm, a state where their work
connected them to God’s

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presence.
This wasn’t mindless obedience,

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it was an embodied form of
worship.

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But insight and alignment could
occur.

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But while convergence and
coherence are deeply meaningful,

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they’re not the ultimate goal.
For example, you’d probably know

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more than me when, when was
Copernicus?

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Like 300 years ago, 400 years
ago, that you know, the idea

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that before that you’d have gone
out into the, into the get your

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friends together, go out into an
open plane.

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You watch the sun coming up from
one place, go over you and set.

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You’re like, all right, Are we
all we’re all sober.

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We’re all well, we all saw that
happening.

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All of our senses, we saw it.
There’s a sun goes around the

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earth.
That’s how things are.

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OK, We’ve all, we’re all
converging on that conclusion.

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But often a greater reality can
break in and disrupt that what?

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What seemingly was convergent
sends it out into because when

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people start navigating, they
start plotting themselves and

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they realize that Mars in the
sky does this kind of weird loop

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of the loop.
And it’s like, how does that

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make sense?
Why is Mars moving in this weird

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loop, the loop around the sky,
if it’s moving around the Earth,

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right?
And then Copernicus realizes

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that, well, the maths is better
if we put the sun in the middle

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and the Earth is go.
And this sudden realisation, Oh

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00:11:43,160 –> 00:11:45,840
my word, we’re not in the middle
of it all this sudden bigger

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00:11:45,840 –> 00:11:52,040
framework and this greater
coherence allows for the things

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00:11:52,040 –> 00:11:54,320
that were kind of weird and
unexplainable before about the

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00:11:54,520 –> 00:11:57,880
way Mars moves in the sky to
suddenly lock into place and

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00:11:57,880 –> 00:12:01,840
become more beautiful, He says.
The maths is more beautiful when

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00:12:01,840 –> 00:12:03,960
you do, when you put the sun in
the middle, because you get the

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00:12:04,200 –> 00:12:08,480
Mars moving in a simple circle.
And consider the priests in the

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00:12:08,480 –> 00:12:10,680
temple.
Their work was this precise and

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00:12:10,920 –> 00:12:13,840
intentional and sacred.
But there comes a moment where

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00:12:13,840 –> 00:12:17,280
God himself intervenes.
This bigger framework arrives

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00:12:17,280 –> 00:12:21,640
and disrupts their flow.
In one Kings 8, when Solomon

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00:12:21,640 –> 00:12:25,040
dedicates to the temple as the
priests perform their duties,

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the glory of the Lord filled the
temple in a thick cloud of smoke

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00:12:28,640 –> 00:12:31,080
and they could no longer see
what they were doing and the

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00:12:31,080 –> 00:12:35,800
ritual was brought to a halt.
This thing that they were, you

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00:12:35,800 –> 00:12:38,960
know, in built into them is the
most important thing to be doing

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00:12:39,200 –> 00:12:41,920
and and keeping this rhythm
going because it was it was so

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00:12:41,920 –> 00:12:46,360
insightful, was stopped by the
very thing that had been telling

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00:12:46,360 –> 00:12:48,360
them to do it.
And it’s like what’s going on

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00:12:48,360 –> 00:12:50,400
here?
And but it’s not a chaos that

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00:12:50,400 –> 00:12:53,560
emerges.
It’s a disruption by a greater

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00:12:53,560 –> 00:12:56,160
coherence.
The overwhelming presence of

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00:12:56,160 –> 00:12:57,800
God.
The ritual was something to

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00:12:57,800 –> 00:13:01,200
point to him, and it’s
momentarily annulled because the

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00:13:01,200 –> 00:13:03,640
reality of God himself has
arrived.

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00:13:04,360 –> 00:13:06,240
Jesus picks up the same theme in
his ministry.

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00:13:06,240 –> 00:13:09,360
When questioned about why his
disciples didn’t fast, he

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00:13:09,360 –> 00:13:13,240
responded, How can the guests of
the bridegroom mourn while he is

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00:13:13,240 –> 00:13:15,800
with them?
The rituals of fasting were

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00:13:15,800 –> 00:13:19,040
meaningful, but they pointed
toward a greater reality, the

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00:13:19,040 –> 00:13:22,080
presence of the Messiah.
With the bridegroom present,

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00:13:22,080 –> 00:13:26,360
fasting became unnecessary.
The greater whole had arrived.

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00:13:28,560 –> 00:13:30,560
And there’s a pattern of this
disruption we see throughout

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00:13:30,560 –> 00:13:32,840
Scripture, isn’t it?
Whether it’s a, a first born

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00:13:33,080 –> 00:13:38,080
disrupting with a second child,
whether it’s the, the, the, the,

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00:13:38,160 –> 00:13:41,240
the Tabernacle being subsumed by
the temple and then the temple

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00:13:41,240 –> 00:13:44,480
being destroyed, this holy
sacred place being being

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00:13:44,560 –> 00:13:47,400
subsumed, but then by the, the
body of Christ, this thing that

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00:13:47,400 –> 00:13:51,200
was not as physical.
There’s this disruption.

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00:13:51,440 –> 00:13:53,880
And in every case, God’s
disruption is not arbitrary.

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00:13:54,360 –> 00:13:59,320
There invitations to see larger,
more coherent reality

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00:14:00,160 –> 00:14:03,120
convergence so vast that it
makes our previous understanding

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00:14:03,120 –> 00:14:07,280
seem small in comparison.
But this journey from this kind

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00:14:07,280 –> 00:14:10,040
of rigidity of the law to the
freedom in Christ that is kind

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00:14:10,040 –> 00:14:12,000
of the bigger picture wasn’t
immediate.

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00:14:12,000 –> 00:14:15,160
It unfolds.
It unfolds over centuries as God

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00:14:15,320 –> 00:14:17,600
patiently leads his people
towards that deeper

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00:14:17,600 –> 00:14:20,400
understanding.
Paul describes the law as a

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00:14:20,400 –> 00:14:23,040
schoolmaster that leads us to
Christ.

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00:14:23,200 –> 00:14:26,320
It was a scaffold, which is a
structure designed to support

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00:14:26,320 –> 00:14:28,880
growth and realization but not
constrain it.

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00:14:29,840 –> 00:14:32,560
There’s a phrase called
liberating structures in in in

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00:14:32,560 –> 00:14:36,120
some organizations that they
provide just enough guidance to

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00:14:36,120 –> 00:14:39,240
enable insight and discovery,
but they don’t lock you in.

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00:14:40,240 –> 00:14:42,760
Seems like David exemplifies
this liberating approach.

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00:14:43,680 –> 00:14:46,680
He lived within the law but
wasn’t bound by its rigidity.

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00:14:46,680 –> 00:14:50,360
When he ate the bread meant only
for the priests, he prioritized

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00:14:50,360 –> 00:14:52,680
mercy and human need over strict
legalism.

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00:14:53,280 –> 00:14:55,520
This act didn’t break God’s
intention for the law, it

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00:14:55,520 –> 00:14:58,280
fulfilled it.
Whereas in contrast, we see the

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00:14:58,280 –> 00:15:01,560
Pharisees who treat the law not
as a scaffold but as a cage.

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00:15:01,800 –> 00:15:04,600
They cling to it so tightly
through its external forms that

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00:15:04,600 –> 00:15:07,640
they missed the deeper reality
it pointed towards.

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00:15:07,960 –> 00:15:12,600
And they atrophy.
They’re holding it so tightly

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00:15:12,600 –> 00:15:15,680
that when the thing comes,
that’s the bigger thing that is

283
00:15:15,680 –> 00:15:19,680
going to bring them a greater
sense of reality.

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00:15:20,120 –> 00:15:22,840
They rupture and they atrophy at
its presence.

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00:15:22,840 –> 00:15:25,400
And they can’t contain it.
And they try and they try and

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00:15:25,400 –> 00:15:28,040
control it, and they can’t do
it.

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00:15:29,320 –> 00:15:30,520
And I think we get a lesson
from.

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00:15:30,640 –> 00:15:33,680
Yeah, the idea of hardening our
hearts.

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00:15:35,400 –> 00:15:38,440
When we fail to make room for
the expansion and reframing of

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00:15:38,440 –> 00:15:41,200
reality, we risk hardening our
hearts.

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00:15:41,360 –> 00:15:44,640
God’s movement feels like a
disruption, but it’s always an

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00:15:44,640 –> 00:15:47,680
invitation to grow.
If we cling too tightly to the

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00:15:47,680 –> 00:15:51,320
familiar, we may find ourselves
unable to adapt when God calls

294
00:15:51,320 –> 00:15:54,520
us into something greater.
Back to the computer game

295
00:15:54,520 –> 00:15:56,200
analogy.
It’s like being an immersed and

296
00:15:56,200 –> 00:15:59,800
epic level of Final Fantasy 7,
fully absorbed in the flow of

297
00:15:59,800 –> 00:16:02,800
the game.
And then it’s like dinner time.

298
00:16:02,800 –> 00:16:07,440
Oh no, like suddenly great
reality comes out and and breaks

299
00:16:07,440 –> 00:16:12,920
into your your quest and and
your coherence in your flow is

300
00:16:12,920 –> 00:16:16,720
broken.
Yeah, you might resist the call,

301
00:16:16,800 –> 00:16:21,240
frustrated by the interruption,
but the reality of dinner and

302
00:16:21,240 –> 00:16:23,120
the relationships it represents
is more important.

303
00:16:23,720 –> 00:16:26,640
And we have obviously the the
metaphor of new wine and into

304
00:16:26,640 –> 00:16:30,280
new wineskins in in the Bible
which which shows this.

305
00:16:38,600 –> 00:16:44,560
Yeah, so this transition, we’ve
seen how God uses structures as

306
00:16:44,560 –> 00:16:47,520
scaffolds, leading his people
step by step towards greater

307
00:16:47,520 –> 00:16:50,280
realizations.
But there’s a crucial ingredient

308
00:16:50,280 –> 00:16:53,040
that allows us to move from the
old structures to the greater

309
00:16:53,040 –> 00:16:57,040
reality, and that’s faith.
Think about the transitions that

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00:16:57,040 –> 00:16:59,640
are in the Bible from earth to
Canaan, from Egypt to the

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00:16:59,640 –> 00:17:03,840
Promised Land, from the temple
to the body of Christ.

312
00:17:04,280 –> 00:17:07,319
All transitions that require
faith.

313
00:17:07,319 –> 00:17:11,280
Stepping out of a framework that
you know and understand and into

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00:17:11,359 –> 00:17:14,640
a kind of a greater space.
Like taking a plant and re

315
00:17:14,640 –> 00:17:17,960
potting it.
The roots have all kind of come

316
00:17:17,960 –> 00:17:20,079
to the edge of the pot and you
can see them when you take out

317
00:17:20,079 –> 00:17:22,040
the small one and when you put
it in the big one.

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00:17:22,040 –> 00:17:25,240
Now those roots have to kind of
fumble through the unknown to

319
00:17:25,240 –> 00:17:27,839
find the edges again and move,
move forward.

320
00:17:30,920 –> 00:17:33,560
So we’ve explored how
convergence and coherence and

321
00:17:33,560 –> 00:17:36,960
flow bring this meaning in our
lives and how computer games

322
00:17:36,960 –> 00:17:40,320
kind of can hijack that and,
and, and, and they’ve been

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00:17:40,320 –> 00:17:42,400
designed because we’re so
susceptible to them.

324
00:17:43,600 –> 00:17:46,800
How God uses structures to lead
us to greater realisations and

325
00:17:46,800 –> 00:17:49,560
how he sometimes disrupts those
structures to reveal something

326
00:17:49,560 –> 00:17:53,040
even deeper.
But here’s the thing.

327
00:17:53,040 –> 00:17:55,600
I’ve just spent the last, I
don’t know, 10.

328
00:17:55,600 –> 00:17:58,040
How long are they going for?
10 minutes or so?

329
00:17:58,360 –> 00:18:00,680
Doing something that feels
slightly out of step with these

330
00:18:00,680 –> 00:18:03,560
principles.
This talk, as meaningful as I’ve

331
00:18:03,560 –> 00:18:05,600
tried to make it, is a
monologue.

332
00:18:06,240 –> 00:18:09,360
It’s a structure we’re used to.
It has a purpose, but it’s a

333
00:18:09,360 –> 00:18:11,120
rigid one.
I’m literally reading off of a

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00:18:11,120 –> 00:18:16,720
piece of screen.
What I mean is I’ve pre baked

335
00:18:16,720 –> 00:18:19,920
these ideas gathering together
into something that feels

336
00:18:19,920 –> 00:18:23,360
convergent and coherent for me.
I’ve been listening to lots of

337
00:18:23,360 –> 00:18:25,520
podcasts about stuff like this.
It’s like, oh, it’s already

338
00:18:25,520 –> 00:18:27,280
everyone in Oxford.
So I love this.

339
00:18:29,080 –> 00:18:33,080
But I work to align insights
from scripture, video games,

340
00:18:33,080 –> 00:18:36,840
which no one relates to and
flow.

341
00:18:37,880 –> 00:18:40,640
And I hope it’s meaningful.
But as I deliver them to you,

342
00:18:40,640 –> 00:18:45,120
they remain separate from you.
I’m hoping that my coherence

343
00:18:45,120 –> 00:18:47,960
will become your coherence, that
things that are convergent for

344
00:18:47,960 –> 00:18:51,960
me will be convergent for you.
But is this the best way to

345
00:18:51,960 –> 00:18:55,720
generate insight?
Or are there more collaborative

346
00:18:55,720 –> 00:18:58,320
ways to align with God than each
other?

347
00:18:59,200 –> 00:19:04,120
And I want to put to you a kind
of a practice that I think is

348
00:19:04,120 –> 00:19:09,880
missing from our set of rituals
that we do as Christadelphians.

349
00:19:11,240 –> 00:19:15,160
These are dialogical practices
as opposed to monological one

350
00:19:15,160 –> 00:19:18,400
way dialogical practices where
we create a framework for

351
00:19:19,520 –> 00:19:22,040
interpersonal dialogical kind of
insight.

352
00:19:23,840 –> 00:19:26,280
And this is where two or three
people engage in deep active

353
00:19:26,280 –> 00:19:29,680
listening to let a conversation
find itself.

354
00:19:30,280 –> 00:19:32,360
The insights don’t come pre
baked.

355
00:19:32,360 –> 00:19:35,520
Instead, they emerge in the
moment through shared attention

356
00:19:35,520 –> 00:19:38,720
and genuine connection.
Imagine what church might feel

357
00:19:38,720 –> 00:19:41,000
like if we approached our shared
time this way.

358
00:19:41,320 –> 00:19:43,520
Not as something where the
insights are handed down from

359
00:19:43,520 –> 00:19:48,120
one person to the rest, but as a
space where we actively work

360
00:19:48,120 –> 00:19:50,640
together to uncover God’s
reality.

361
00:19:51,160 –> 00:19:53,480
It would be less like delivering
a talk and more like building a

362
00:19:53,480 –> 00:19:56,640
structure in real time, one that
scaffolds us towards something

363
00:19:56,640 –> 00:19:59,640
greater.
A practice like this isn’t easy

364
00:19:59,640 –> 00:20:01,120
to master.
I think we had a good example

365
00:20:01,120 –> 00:20:02,960
actually trying to master
something at the very beginning

366
00:20:02,960 –> 00:20:04,040
there.
So I’m going to pick up on this

367
00:20:04,040 –> 00:20:07,480
a few times.
Right, like a new song and a new

368
00:20:07,480 –> 00:20:11,240
way of doing it.
There was some instruction, but

369
00:20:11,240 –> 00:20:15,920
there was a lot of space.
And you know, ideally you’d

370
00:20:15,920 –> 00:20:18,560
you’d spend more time practising
each kind of part and and

371
00:20:18,560 –> 00:20:21,240
training yourself in it so it
becomes intuitive and then

372
00:20:21,240 –> 00:20:22,960
bringing it together.
But that would also take a lot

373
00:20:22,960 –> 00:20:26,120
of time and a dialogical
practices these kind of three

374
00:20:26,120 –> 00:20:29,400
person kind of ways of of.
Gaining insight.

375
00:20:30,080 –> 00:20:32,120
I like learning an instrument.
It’s something that you start,

376
00:20:32,160 –> 00:20:35,240
it’s very clunky and you have to
kind of feel your way into it.

377
00:20:35,760 –> 00:20:38,640
It will feel awkward, out of
tune, hard to navigate.

378
00:20:38,640 –> 00:20:41,080
The process won’t immediately
feel coherent or insight.

379
00:20:41,400 –> 00:20:43,200
The practice itself is quite
rigid.

380
00:20:43,200 –> 00:20:46,520
It involves taking turns and
alloting time for each person,

381
00:20:46,840 –> 00:20:49,480
resisting the urge to jump into
free flowing back and forth

382
00:20:49,480 –> 00:20:51,640
conversation.
But with commitment, something

383
00:20:51,640 –> 00:20:54,200
incredible happens.
Just as learning an instrument

384
00:20:54,200 –> 00:20:57,320
transforms from clunky practice
into beautiful music, this

385
00:20:57,320 –> 00:20:59,680
practice of dialogue blog begins
to lock in.

386
00:20:59,920 –> 00:21:02,440
Over time, insights emerge that
you couldn’t have worked out on

387
00:21:02,440 –> 00:21:05,080
your own because you’re working
in genuine connection with

388
00:21:05,120 –> 00:21:07,520
others.
You find convergence and meaning

389
00:21:07,520 –> 00:21:09,600
across the voices of your
brothers and sisters.

390
00:21:09,840 –> 00:21:13,320
And in the midst of that shared
insight, God’s presence, we

391
00:21:13,320 –> 00:21:15,720
could call it, becomes more
profoundly real.

392
00:21:18,080 –> 00:21:20,720
So to give you that the real
practicalities of it, one person

393
00:21:20,720 –> 00:21:25,000
speaks for two minutes, the
other person repeats back

394
00:21:25,000 –> 00:21:27,320
everything they’ve heard the
first person saying within that

395
00:21:27,320 –> 00:21:29,720
2 minutes.
And a third person just observed

396
00:21:29,720 –> 00:21:31,680
is like a bystander.
What’s going on?

397
00:21:31,680 –> 00:21:34,760
And then you move around, the
listener becomes the speaker,

398
00:21:35,120 –> 00:21:40,480
and each role switches.
And as you kind of go through

399
00:21:40,480 –> 00:21:44,480
it, person A brings what’s going
on for them, Person B brings

400
00:21:44,480 –> 00:21:46,520
what’s going on from them.
It’s like these disparate, kind

401
00:21:46,520 –> 00:21:49,040
of almost like scatter graph
kind of things to start coming

402
00:21:49,040 –> 00:21:52,440
in, but then you go around again
and things start to kind of

403
00:21:52,440 –> 00:21:55,040
converge, but in a spiral.
You’ve gone round, you’ve gone

404
00:21:55,040 –> 00:21:56,400
up a level.
Now everything you’ve said

405
00:21:56,400 –> 00:21:59,200
before now becomes relevant to
the next series of kind of

406
00:21:59,200 –> 00:22:00,840
speaking.
Maybe you go on for three

407
00:22:00,840 –> 00:22:03,080
minutes or 4 minutes instead.
And you go around, you do this

408
00:22:03,080 –> 00:22:06,120
for like 1/2 an hour, 45
minutes, and you end up with the

409
00:22:06,120 –> 00:22:09,600
conversation finding itself
rather than me coming and just

410
00:22:09,600 –> 00:22:11,560
giving you what I think is
relevant.

411
00:22:11,640 –> 00:22:16,920
Relevance emerges.
And it’s a much I haven’t like.

412
00:22:16,920 –> 00:22:19,320
I want to do this more because
the tastes I’ve had of it have

413
00:22:19,320 –> 00:22:20,960
been really insightful and
really profound.

414
00:22:21,400 –> 00:22:24,040
And it’s something that I’m
advocating for doing.

415
00:22:24,040 –> 00:22:25,320
We do a little bit of hands
worth.

416
00:22:25,320 –> 00:22:27,280
I want to do it more, and I find
it very compelling.

417
00:22:29,720 –> 00:22:32,480
But a warning is here as well.
As compelling as video games can

418
00:22:32,480 –> 00:22:34,080
be, there’s a trap to be wary
of.

419
00:22:34,080 –> 00:22:37,080
They’re addictive. 99% of the
skills you develop in them don’t

420
00:22:37,080 –> 00:22:39,760
transfer to real life.
You can master intricate

421
00:22:39,760 –> 00:22:42,760
strategies, overcome immense
challenges, feel like a hero in

422
00:22:42,760 –> 00:22:44,600
the game world.
But when you step away, those

423
00:22:44,600 –> 00:22:47,240
skills don’t often equip you to
face the complexities of the

424
00:22:47,240 –> 00:22:49,560
real world.
And as a parallel, I wanted to

425
00:22:49,560 –> 00:22:52,320
consider, have we gamified the
Bible?

426
00:22:52,640 –> 00:22:55,440
Sometimes our approach to Bible
study feels like levelling up in

427
00:22:55,440 –> 00:22:57,600
a game.
We gain knowledge, cross

428
00:22:57,600 –> 00:22:59,920
references, historical insights.
We might even feel like

429
00:23:00,040 –> 00:23:03,280
spiritual experts ready to face
any theological challenge.

430
00:23:03,520 –> 00:23:06,040
But then when we’re called into
the real world, into the

431
00:23:06,040 –> 00:23:09,360
workplaces, our relationships
and communities, do we find that

432
00:23:09,360 –> 00:23:11,480
this knowledge translates into
wisdom?

433
00:23:11,720 –> 00:23:13,480
Because knowledge is not the
same as wisdom.

434
00:23:13,720 –> 00:23:16,680
We can memorize verses, debate
doctrines, trace prophecies.

435
00:23:16,880 –> 00:23:19,360
But if this doesn’t transform
the way we live, love, and

436
00:23:19,360 –> 00:23:22,320
serve, then we’re no better
equipped for the real world than

437
00:23:22,320 –> 00:23:25,240
a gamer who’s maxed out the
stats but can’t cook dinner.

438
00:23:26,480 –> 00:23:30,680
Dinner’s always a important part
of this.

439
00:23:30,680 –> 00:23:33,200
Jesus didn’t just know the Law,
He embodied it.

440
00:23:33,400 –> 00:23:36,480
His wisdom wasn’t locked into
study rooms or synagogues.

441
00:23:36,480 –> 00:23:39,640
It was active and relational.
He healed the sick, touched the

442
00:23:39,640 –> 00:23:41,560
untouchable, and spoke truth to
power.

443
00:23:42,080 –> 00:23:44,360
He lived the Scriptures in a way
that made them profoundly

444
00:23:44,360 –> 00:23:46,040
relevant to everyone he
encountered.

445
00:23:47,720 –> 00:23:50,000
And I think that’s what a
listening exercise does.

446
00:23:50,000 –> 00:23:56,040
It brings our understanding into
relation with other people and

447
00:23:57,240 –> 00:24:01,240
makes us maybe breaks the frame
of of what is relevant to us

448
00:24:01,240 –> 00:24:04,400
because we’re trying to bring
into alignment with other people

449
00:24:04,400 –> 00:24:07,720
in the way that they see things.
And if our job is just to listen

450
00:24:07,720 –> 00:24:11,320
back to what they’re saying, not
to go, but what about or have

451
00:24:11,320 –> 00:24:14,360
you considered this?
You let the conversation find

452
00:24:14,360 –> 00:24:18,440
itself.
Paul describes a church

453
00:24:18,440 –> 00:24:20,320
gathering where participation is
shared.

454
00:24:20,320 –> 00:24:23,160
What then, brothers?
When you come together, each one

455
00:24:23,160 –> 00:24:25,720
has a hymn, a lesson, a
revelation, a tongue or an

456
00:24:25,720 –> 00:24:28,760
interpretation.
Let all things be done for

457
00:24:28,760 –> 00:24:34,480
building up.
And yeah, the the thing I’m

458
00:24:34,480 –> 00:24:37,040
proposing is quite rigid.
Like there’s a time to it.

459
00:24:37,040 –> 00:24:39,520
There’s a turn taking to it.
But in the same way that like

460
00:24:40,080 –> 00:24:43,280
any practice has to start with a
rigid set of training wheels,

461
00:24:44,160 –> 00:24:48,200
your scales, you know, or I
don’t know, other, other

462
00:24:48,200 –> 00:24:50,960
creative practices and things.
And then you can, they’re

463
00:24:50,960 –> 00:24:53,120
liberating structures that allow
you, they, they, they generally

464
00:24:53,120 –> 00:24:56,400
allow you to become able to
listen more.

465
00:24:57,000 –> 00:24:59,960
And it might seem a little bit
scary like, well, what, what,

466
00:24:59,960 –> 00:25:02,480
what will we talk about?
What’s the, what’s the point of

467
00:25:02,480 –> 00:25:03,440
it?
And, and there’s this kind of

468
00:25:03,440 –> 00:25:05,760
this thing opens up in front of
us, which we’re not in control

469
00:25:05,760 –> 00:25:07,240
of anymore.
When we’re allowing the

470
00:25:07,240 –> 00:25:11,800
conversation to take charge of
what’s happening, an empty space

471
00:25:11,800 –> 00:25:14,240
opens up.
I think that’s deeply spiritual.

472
00:25:14,520 –> 00:25:17,040
And, and, and the lesson that
Jesus brings us at his

473
00:25:17,040 –> 00:25:20,520
crucifixion because he steps
into a, into a place that he has

474
00:25:20,520 –> 00:25:23,480
no 12 step program for death and
resurrection.

475
00:25:23,760 –> 00:25:28,680
He has to move into this
openness with faith that there

476
00:25:28,680 –> 00:25:31,800
will be a transition.
He might not know it, He might

477
00:25:31,800 –> 00:25:35,120
not see it in it’s fullness.
He has understandings of it, I

478
00:25:35,120 –> 00:25:39,320
believe, but I think he has
faith in God to open and and

479
00:25:39,320 –> 00:25:42,600
hold more than death as he goes
into it.

480
00:25:42,640 –> 00:25:51,520
Let me just finish with Two
Timothy 2 because I think that

481
00:25:51,520 –> 00:25:57,920
that that last part about what a
good teacher is is actually a

482
00:25:57,920 –> 00:26:05,440
description of somebody that
holds space from verse 22.

483
00:26:06,560 –> 00:26:09,040
Fully youthful passions and
pursue righteousness, faith,

484
00:26:09,040 –> 00:26:12,760
love and peace along with those
who call on the Lord from a pure

485
00:26:12,760 –> 00:26:15,920
heart have nothing to do with
foolish, ignorant controversies.

486
00:26:16,040 –> 00:26:19,240
Controversies, you know that
they breed quarrels.

487
00:26:19,560 –> 00:26:21,840
This is an important bit.
And the Lord’s servant must not

488
00:26:21,840 –> 00:26:24,760
be quarrelsome, but kind to
everyone, able to teach

489
00:26:24,760 –> 00:26:27,560
patiently, enduring evil,
correcting opponents with

490
00:26:27,560 –> 00:26:29,720
gentleness.
And there’s this kind of

491
00:26:29,920 –> 00:26:36,720
frameworks out here of, of what
a good servant can do, you know,

492
00:26:36,760 –> 00:26:39,200
patiently enduring evil.
You might not agree with what

493
00:26:39,200 –> 00:26:41,560
the other person is saying in
their few minutes.

494
00:26:41,560 –> 00:26:46,280
And the idea is to hold a space
for even if you don’t believe it

495
00:26:47,200 –> 00:26:51,080
in order to kind of maybe let
the conversation inform them

496
00:26:51,800 –> 00:26:54,160
because because the the
important bit is that is the

497
00:26:54,160 –> 00:26:57,360
next verse.
God may perhaps grant them

498
00:26:57,360 –> 00:26:59,360
repentance, leading to a
knowledge of the truth.

499
00:26:59,520 –> 00:27:04,640
It’s not the, it’s not the duty
of the servant to grant them or

500
00:27:04,840 –> 00:27:08,200
get them to repent.
You hold the space for

501
00:27:08,200 –> 00:27:11,280
repentance to happen.
Does that make sense?

502
00:27:13,120 –> 00:27:16,320
It’s not for us to say, you
know, to close down the

503
00:27:16,320 –> 00:27:17,640
situation.
There’s a there’s a space

504
00:27:17,640 –> 00:27:19,000
opening up here.
I don’t know what they’re going

505
00:27:19,000 –> 00:27:20,320
to say.
Oh, no, there’s going to be

506
00:27:20,320 –> 00:27:24,760
heresies abounding.
It’s like feed it back to them,

507
00:27:24,920 –> 00:27:28,760
bring it back, bring in other
voices, converge where?

508
00:27:28,760 –> 00:27:31,080
Where does it converge?
Can you bring it into an

509
00:27:31,080 –> 00:27:34,880
alignment not not out of
controlling them, but out of

510
00:27:34,880 –> 00:27:38,400
allowing the conversation to
steer them in the in the right

511
00:27:38,400 –> 00:27:40,040
direction.
The other voices in the group

512
00:27:40,040 –> 00:27:43,880
that might bring about this
convergence and God may bring

513
00:27:44,520 –> 00:27:50,080
the repentance.
I feel that’s what Jesus does in

514
00:27:50,080 –> 00:27:51,800
his ministry at every, every
step.

515
00:27:53,600 –> 00:27:56,680
Obviously there’s there’s
instances of, of taking control

516
00:27:56,680 –> 00:28:00,520
in the temple, but it’s often
like bringing another question,

517
00:28:01,200 –> 00:28:07,000
opening up in his response to
them to allow the work to be

518
00:28:07,000 –> 00:28:10,200
done like between them, not in a
top down kind of way, but in

519
00:28:10,200 –> 00:28:13,840
like a bottom up kind of a way
where it emerges, the relevance

520
00:28:13,920 –> 00:28:18,720
emerges and the answers emerge.
OK, I’m never good at ending my

521
00:28:18,720 –> 00:28:20,440
talks.
This is kind of where I’m at at

522
00:28:20,440 –> 00:28:24,080
the end of it.
Well, I also like to is there

523
00:28:24,080 –> 00:28:26,440
anything like feeding back this
way?

524
00:28:26,680 –> 00:28:29,800
It has been a monologue, like
where where is there anything

525
00:28:29,800 –> 00:28:31,480
that you might want to throw
back at me just for a few

526
00:28:31,480 –> 00:28:34,640
minutes to to conclude and bring
it to an end?

527
00:28:36,360 –> 00:28:38,000
Yeah, this is very easy to
control, isn’t it?

528
00:28:38,000 –> 00:28:41,480
I mean, you can be thinking
whatever you want in in the

529
00:28:41,480 –> 00:28:44,560
seats there, but it looks like
we’re all in like unity, like

530
00:28:44,840 –> 00:28:48,240
there’s like socially it’s
easier in many ways.

531
00:28:48,240 –> 00:28:52,640
And, and, and sometimes that
energy gradient the other way

532
00:28:53,120 –> 00:28:56,880
is, is a little up uphill
towards kind of, and, and it’s

533
00:28:56,880 –> 00:28:59,880
more vulnerable as well because
you have to kind of open up and,

534
00:29:00,360 –> 00:29:04,480
and, and be, I think that the
listing container holds that

535
00:29:04,480 –> 00:29:06,800
nicely.
Like your job is just to repeat

536
00:29:06,800 –> 00:29:09,480
back what the other person says.
And, and when they get that, oh,

537
00:29:09,480 –> 00:29:13,960
I’m just being listened to, this
is nice, this is unusual.

538
00:29:14,280 –> 00:29:16,000
Then it’s like, then more comes
out.

539
00:29:16,000 –> 00:29:18,080
They might start with, I don’t,
I don’t really have anything to

540
00:29:18,080 –> 00:29:19,920
say.
I hear you saying you’ve not got

541
00:29:19,920 –> 00:29:21,960
much to say about this.
Yeah.

542
00:29:21,960 –> 00:29:25,520
But you know, like just that
beginning of of that kind of

543
00:29:25,920 –> 00:29:29,400
holding space for them not
having anything to say is like a

544
00:29:29,400 –> 00:29:31,240
profound thing.
It’s like that’s OK.

545
00:29:31,240 –> 00:29:33,320
Like you’re saying no judgement
involved in it.

546
00:29:33,320 –> 00:29:36,120
And in this kind of thing, it
starts to then generate and we

547
00:29:36,120 –> 00:29:37,880
get practiced at it.
It becomes really profound, I

548
00:29:37,880 –> 00:29:39,400
think.
Yeah, Yeah.

549
00:29:39,400 –> 00:29:41,520
Good.
Yeah, it just starts.

550
00:29:42,280 –> 00:29:45,440
Yeah, I can imagine trying to
hold space to someone who’s

551
00:29:45,440 –> 00:29:49,080
like, well, I think the Earth’s
flat and that it’s really

552
00:29:49,080 –> 00:29:51,560
tricky.
Like if you if you’re OK, right,

553
00:29:52,320 –> 00:29:54,480
have to kind of and it feels
like you’re entertaining an idea

554
00:29:54,480 –> 00:29:57,640
that’s.
But if you just there is there’s

555
00:29:57,680 –> 00:30:00,880
like an intrinsic thing to it
where you’re repeating back what

556
00:30:00,880 –> 00:30:04,680
they’re saying.
And, and sometimes and that’s

557
00:30:04,680 –> 00:30:05,840
the thing.
You’re not trying to control

558
00:30:05,840 –> 00:30:07,680
where it’s going.
You’re not trying to go, well,

559
00:30:07,760 –> 00:30:09,880
you know, I’ve got I’ve got
these facts for you.

560
00:30:09,880 –> 00:30:13,040
You’ll have your turn to speak,
but you’re not trying to control

561
00:30:13,080 –> 00:30:14,880
your you’re.
Yeah.

562
00:30:14,880 –> 00:30:16,400
And it’s like it’s letting go.
And I feel like it’s this

563
00:30:16,400 –> 00:30:19,880
emptying of yourself to be in
control of the situation, and

564
00:30:19,880 –> 00:30:23,160
then something else can take
control of it.

565
00:30:23,920 –> 00:30:26,960
Yes.
So Tom, coming from someone

566
00:30:26,960 –> 00:30:31,480
online, you would need to find a
way to make it work online.

567
00:30:32,160 –> 00:30:34,120
Oh yes.
Well, yeah.

568
00:30:34,880 –> 00:30:38,960
And I’d much rather try.
And yeah, that’s tricky.

569
00:30:39,720 –> 00:30:42,360
You, you need, you need a
facilitator who can use Zoom to

570
00:30:42,560 –> 00:30:47,120
do breakout groups and, and
conduct the whole thing in

571
00:30:47,120 –> 00:30:52,000
harmony in, in a way that is
because it can be very clunky.

572
00:30:52,000 –> 00:30:56,120
And that’s why coming together
in person to do listening is I

573
00:30:56,120 –> 00:30:59,680
think really, really important.
And, and, and it presents an

574
00:30:59,680 –> 00:31:03,240
argument then for localising
yourself amongst a community of

575
00:31:03,240 –> 00:31:07,760
people you can be with again,
which I think we’ve lost a lot

576
00:31:07,760 –> 00:31:09,920
of.
So there’s no easy answer to

577
00:31:09,920 –> 00:31:12,000
that unless you’ve got some
Wizards who are able to

578
00:31:12,520 –> 00:31:14,560
facilitate it very, very well
and seamlessly.

579
00:31:15,840 –> 00:31:19,920
So just bring it then back to,
to, to Christ with, for me, the

580
00:31:19,920 –> 00:31:22,960
profoundness of stepping into
that unknown.

581
00:31:23,280 –> 00:31:27,280
We, we’re talking about a
microcosm level of between us as

582
00:31:27,280 –> 00:31:29,840
these unknowns and we have to
like step into those unknowns

583
00:31:29,880 –> 00:31:34,000
and, and not try and hold, hold
on to it with, you know,

584
00:31:34,000 –> 00:31:38,120
grabbing hands.
But Jesus just let’s go into it

585
00:31:38,120 –> 00:31:43,560
and knowing that God has a, a, a
greater coherence, a greater

586
00:31:43,720 –> 00:31:47,640
convergence beyond what we can
see and, and, and know beyond

587
00:31:47,640 –> 00:31:52,520
death that will hold, hold it,
which is obviously great faith.

588
00:31:52,680 –> 00:31:56,240
It’s extremely easy to say that
and very hard to put into

589
00:31:56,240 –> 00:31:58,520
practice, but I think one of the
places we can put into practice

590
00:31:58,520 –> 00:32:02,240
is between people and the
conversations that we have.

591
00:32:02,320 –> 00:32:04,800
So thank you very much for
listening.

592
00:32:19,270 –> 00:32:21,390
Thank you for listening to the
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593
00:32:21,390 –> 00:32:23,990
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594
00:32:23,990 –> 00:32:25,510
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595
00:32:26,670 –> 00:32:28,710
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600
00:32:40,560 –> 00:32:44,680
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610
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611
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