292: Colin Badger – How Sure Are the Foundations?

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Welcome to good Chris selfie and
talks.

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I’m Levi.
And I’m Chris, and I’m Brian,

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thank you for joining us this
week.

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On this podcast, we select one
talk a week to help us get the

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Bible in our Daily News feed.
We post a new episode at the

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start of each week, with a short
intro beforehand to kind of set

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the stage for the talk you’re
about to listen to.

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And now let’s talk more about
this week’s talk.

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This week’s talk is a public
lecture that was given at the

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Glendale Ecclesia here in
California.

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It must be in the early 80s.
I think it’s 198182 range by

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Colin Badger from Ontario.
So he was on a, a visit here in

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Southern California.
This was really a fun talk to

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listen to.
It’s a, it’s kind of a style

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that we don’t do anymore, being
such an overt public lecture,

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you know, clearly on theology
and the difference in Catholic

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theology.
A fun thing that we’re including

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is Brother Bob Lloyd, who
attended the Glendale Collegia

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at the time, does the is the
presider.

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And so we’re going to include
his remarks.

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And there’s there’s he has a
some wrap up thoughts after the

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talk as well.
He refers to a hymn in a prayer,

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but the recording didn’t include
the hymn.

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We will be keeping the closing
prayer by Brother Bob.

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So, yeah, again, this was a very
fun lesson because it’s a very

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different style than what we
usually run on the show and

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obviously kind of a piece of our
of our history being this is

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nearly 45 years old.
The brother Colin does a really

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good, good job kind of running
through some Catholic writings

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and they’re in congruence with
Scripture.

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He also spends a lot of time
talking about how tradition or

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oral tradition cannot be or
should not be equated or ever

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superseding scripture.
And there’s some really

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interesting verses there which
which I really enjoyed.

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So very happy to share this
talk.

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Brother Colin Badger, how sure
are your foundations?

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Going to engage our attention
tonight is actually a question.

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It’s not a statement.
The question is how sure are the

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foundation?
We’re appealing to you to

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examine your foundation to see
how sure they are.

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And it’s our pleasure to call on
our friend and brother, Mr.

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Colin Badger from Toronto, ON,
Canada, who will bring us this

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important Bible lecture.
Incidentally, following the

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lecture, there will be
opportunity for questions from

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the floor or they may be
written.

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You have a card in your little
book, you’ll write a question on

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that.
They can be sent forward or you

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may ask it verbally at the
conclusion of the address if you

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so desire.
Also, you may see him afterwards

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privately to engage in a one to
one conversation.

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He’s pleased to do that.
So now we call on our Mr. Badger

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to bring us this lecture.
Good evening, ladies and

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gentlemen.
It’s encouraging to find the

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number of people this evening
that are interested enough on a

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topic such as this that he will
come out and spend part of an

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evening with you, with us
rather.

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And we are encouraged that
people are willing to examine

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some of the foundations for
their faith and to open the

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Bible with us this evening and
consider how sure the

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foundations are.
If one looks out in the world

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today.
Such a topic as we have selected

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this evening, an examination of
a particular religion or an

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examination of a particular form
of conviction, it is viewed by

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many as being rather narrow.
It’s viewed even by some as

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being rather an unchrist like
kind of examination.

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We understand that kind of
feeling is there among many,

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many people.
But if one sets Christ and his

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apostle as the standard for
Christian conduct and approach,

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one finds that the apostle Paul
and the other apostles encourage

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people, and that includes
Christadelphines, of course, to

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consider the very basis of their
faith time and time again, not

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just once in life.
There is a section in the New

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Testament from the book of
Corinthians where the apostle

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Paul wrote, and he asked them to
examine their convictions.

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He wrote a similar passage in
the book of Timothy.

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We’ll look at the one from
Timothy, or at least quote it

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first, and then we’ll look at
the passage from the

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Corinthians.
Paul said to the young man.

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Timothy and the 2nd Epistle,
chapter 4.

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Before God.
Paul appealed to Timothy and

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before Christ Jesus, who is the
judge of men living and dead.

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I charge you solemnly by his
coming appearance and his reign.

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Proclaim the message.
Press at home on all occasions,

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convenient or inconvenient.
Use argument, reprove and appeal

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with all the patience that the
work of teaching requires.

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That’s taken from the New
English Bible.

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That’s in Second Timothy,
chapter 4.

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It’s in the spirit of the
Apostle Paul’s appeal that true

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Christians should be willing to
appeal to others.

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Our appeal, therefore, is
offered this evening.

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Ladies and gentlemen, in the
spirit of those words, there’s

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another passage I mentioned in
Second Corinthians.

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We’ll put this on the overhead
Second Corinthians chapter 13,

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verse 5.
Paul wrote to a group of already

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convinced professing Christians.
Examine yourselves whether ye be

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in the faith.
Examine yourselves whether ye be

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in the faith.
Prove your own self.

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Now keep in mind, this was
written to a Christian

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community.
They were already professing

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Christians.
It was not contrary, therefore

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to the spirit of the apostles or
to the Spirit of Christ for

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people who already felt that
they were secure Christians to

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still keep open their minds and
hearts to a critical self

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examination and to appeal to
others as Paul was to do the

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same.
It is not an unchristian spirit

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and it is not an unprice like
thing to do to appeal to

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ourselves and to fellow
professing Christians to

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consider the basis of their
convictions, whether they are

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firm and sure.
Thank you.

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There is another passage in the
New Testament that strikes a

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very similar note.
Perhaps you’re familiar with it.

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It’s in the book of Jude, in
that little tiny book which

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really has only one chapter,
Jude three and four.

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Another apostle wrote this, and
this is from the New English

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Bible.
It became urgently necessary,

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writes Jude, to write at once
and appeal to you to join the

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struggle in defense of the
faith, the faith which God

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entrusted to his people once and
for all.

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You see the Spirit that’s behind
those words, like those behind

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Paul’s.
It is a Christ like thing to do

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to try and go forward to people,
encourage people to examine the

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foundations of their convictions
and to apply that equally to

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oneself.
It is in the Spirit of Christ to

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contend earnestly for the faith.
Contention is regarded by many

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people in the outside in a very
negative thing.

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In the New Testament the word
contention is used a number of

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times in a Christ like context.
As long as the motives are right

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and the approach is Christ like,
contending for the faith is

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something a Christian ought to
do, providing of course it’s in

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the right spirit.
We notice also that Jews speaks

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of something he terms the faith
he had a kind of, it would say,

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exclusive definition of faith.
He didn’t refer to simply

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Christian faith in general.
He used the definite article

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contending earnestly for the
faith that was once entrusted to

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his people once and for all.
You know, that’s quite a

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contrast to the spirit that is
typical in the world today, even

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amongst people who are
professing Christians.

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The apostles, you see, held to
something which they called in

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an exclusive sense, the faith.
And moreover, the apostles, as

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we can see in the Acts and in
these writings of the early

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Christian community, the
apostles enjoin true believers

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to join in the struggle for the
defense of the faith.

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Although that’s regarded perhaps
as being rather negative

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terminology, it is the inspired
terminology of your New

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Testament.
A vigorous direct approach with

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an appeal to return to the faith
as it was first delivered was in

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fact the posture of the first
apostles who preached on the

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face of this earth following
their Masters example.

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So that if today such an
approach is regarded as being

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narrow or unprice like, it is
only because the example of

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Christ and the apostles in their
New Testament preaching is

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ignored.
New Testament appeals such as

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the ones we’ve just looked at
should then make it obvious that

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such an appeal for self
examination is legitimate.

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In fact, since we are
considering the Catholic

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community and some of their
convictions, it’s I suppose, in

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keeping with such a spirit that
we find a pamphlet such as this

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published by the Knights of
Columbus with official

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endorsement of the Catholic
Church, offered quite often in

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Time magazine.
Where I found the advertisement

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and the address I wrote to was
in New Haven, CT.

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This is a Catholic brochure for
someone who is a non Catholic.

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It’s entitled Some Beliefs have
Got to be Wrong.

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We would concur with that.
And the whole spirit of this

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pamphlet is an appeal to a
community, not for Adelphian, a

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very small community that have
differences with the Catholic

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community.
And this Catholic brochure is

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examining in detail the
differences they have with this

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community and making an appeal
to them to consider the

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foundations of their faith.
So it would seem that even the

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Catholic community itself feels
that this is not on Christ like,

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and it’s in the same spirit of
that kind of brochure that we

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make our appeal to the Catholic
community this evening.

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We might ask a further question
of the Christadelphian this

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evening.
Why are we making an appeal in

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particular at this time to the
Roman Catholic community?

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Well, really, when you think
about it, never before in the

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history of this country and the
country from which I come, has

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there been a time when the
Catholic faith has been in the

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eyes of the public as much as it
has in the past few years.

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Mainly because of the present
Pope visitation to both Canada

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and the United States, and
because the Catholic community

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and its convictions and the head
of its Church have received such

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public concern and such public
interest.

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We feel that it is time this
evening, and it is timely when

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we’re, for example, talking to
our own friends who are Roman

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Catholics, to discuss the basis
for conviction and to appeal to

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Roman Catholics, especially at
this time, to really consider

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carefully in the Bible the basis
of their convictions.

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Well, that’s one reason why we
would make such an appeal to

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Roman Catholics in particular at
this time.

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But perhaps there’s a more
profound really reason than

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that.
The reason would be this that

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the Catholic Church does make a
number of very important claims

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for herself as a church.
Those claims are really quite

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unparalleled in any other church
in Christendom.

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If those claims are correct,
then there are many people who

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are professing Christians that
are sadly astray.

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On the other hand, since the
Roman Catholic community

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embraces so many people, if in
fact the foundation for the the

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community of a Catholic Church
is itself on questionable

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grounds, the situation is
equally tragic.

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And since we as Christadelphians
and the community are convinced

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from an examination of the Bible
that some Catholic doctrines are

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indeed a stray from Bible
teaching, we feel as professing

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Christians that we would be
sadly astray to neglect a

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responsibility to make an appeal
like we would this evening.

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So it is in the spirit of those
two main reasons we’ve mentioned

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already, ladies and gentlemen,
that the Catholic Church makes a

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number of very unique claims
about herself and those who

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minister on her behalf.
Let’s just be a little more

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specific about what we mean now.
Could we have our first

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overhead?
Thank you.

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Going to quote from a current
Catholic publication.

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It is written by John O’Brien
who is an American Catholic, or

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was rather.
He has since deceased since he

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finished the last edition of his
book.

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John O’Brien wrote The Faith of
Millions in the early 50s.

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Since it has gone through free
edition and is regarded as being

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perhaps one of the most popular
Catholic appeals to the non

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00:14:35,720 –> 00:14:38,680
Catholic.
The book is not a catechism for

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00:14:38,680 –> 00:14:41,760
Catholics.
It is an appeal to Protestants

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00:14:41,800 –> 00:14:46,320
or to non Catholics.
It tries to come to grips with

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00:14:46,320 –> 00:14:49,000
what they would regard from the
major differences with people

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00:14:49,000 –> 00:14:52,800
who are not Catholics.
And in passing, it comes with

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00:14:52,920 –> 00:14:56,200
full approval or authority from
the Catholic community.

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00:14:56,200 –> 00:14:58,880
Now when we say that we should
explain what we mean.

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00:14:59,680 –> 00:15:04,560
Inside certain Catholic pieces
of literature one might find

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00:15:04,720 –> 00:15:09,680
what we call the imprimatur.
The imprimatur is a seal of

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00:15:09,680 –> 00:15:13,160
approval that it has been
carefully scrutinized by

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00:15:13,160 –> 00:15:17,160
representatives of the Catholic
community for being faultless in

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00:15:17,160 –> 00:15:20,440
terms of the basics of moral and
teaching for the Catholic

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00:15:20,440 –> 00:15:23,440
community.
It also has a second stamp of

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00:15:23,440 –> 00:15:26,480
approval that goes with the
informatics called the Nil Hill

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00:15:26,560 –> 00:15:29,480
Absa.
Well, those two fields of

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00:15:29,480 –> 00:15:33,640
approval are attached to all the
literature that we recently

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00:15:33,640 –> 00:15:34,840
referred to.
The feeding.

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00:15:35,520 –> 00:15:38,840
Any Catholic literature that I
refer to has that kind of

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00:15:38,840 –> 00:15:42,320
authority so that it is as
representative as literature can

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00:15:42,320 –> 00:15:47,200
be of the Catholic community.
Well, John O’Brien wrote this in

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00:15:47,200 –> 00:15:49,840
one of his earlier editions of
the Faith of Millions.

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00:15:51,200 –> 00:15:55,080
The voice of history shows at a
glance that the Catholic Church

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00:15:55,080 –> 00:15:59,400
is the only Church in the world
today which traces their origin

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00:15:59,400 –> 00:16:02,840
back to Christ.
It shows that she along was

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00:16:02,840 –> 00:16:06,440
founded by Christ, while all
other churches were established

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00:16:06,560 –> 00:16:10,200
by men.
That’s a fairly unique claim.

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00:16:10,200 –> 00:16:12,320
That’s the kind of claim we’re
referring to.

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00:16:12,760 –> 00:16:16,320
It is, we would say, a claim for
very special privilege and

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00:16:16,400 –> 00:16:19,080
authority.
The Church believes they have a

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00:16:19,080 –> 00:16:22,840
pedigree that goes back to the
1st century, being linked with

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00:16:22,920 –> 00:16:26,280
Peter himself.
One of the most popular

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00:16:26,280 –> 00:16:31,360
catechisms in the United States
today, written by Lawler and

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00:16:31,360 –> 00:16:34,080
Lawler, two brothers, both of
whom are Roman Catholics, of

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00:16:34,080 –> 00:16:36,480
course, is called The Teaching
of Christ.

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00:16:37,360 –> 00:16:40,320
Since its first publication, it
has passed into a number of

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00:16:40,320 –> 00:16:42,880
languages all over the Latin
world and parts of Europe.

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00:16:43,480 –> 00:16:56,720
It is a current up to
Now it also comes with

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00:16:57,240 –> 00:17:00,840
Inframatter and Nilhilabsta.
It is a catechism for the

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00:17:00,840 –> 00:17:04,560
teaching of Roman Catholics.
In that book we have another

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00:17:04,599 –> 00:17:08,200
rather pointed quotation
representing one of our points.

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00:17:09,680 –> 00:17:12,040
Lawler writes.
Come to the Catholic faces to

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00:17:12,040 –> 00:17:14,760
see that the Church asks for
Christ.

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00:17:15,839 –> 00:17:20,000
It is to understand that when a
priest gives the sacrament, it

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00:17:20,000 –> 00:17:24,040
is Christ who gives us the
sacrament through him.

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00:17:25,520 –> 00:17:30,280
That is a very important and
certainly a rather unique claim

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00:17:30,280 –> 00:17:33,120
for those who minister on behalf
of the Catholic Church.

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00:17:33,720 –> 00:17:36,760
But it does illustrate for us
the kind of privilege or the

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00:17:36,760 –> 00:17:40,840
kind of authority that we’re
coming to grips with here, the

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00:17:40,840 –> 00:17:43,560
kind of a question of authority
or privilege that we would like

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00:17:43,560 –> 00:17:47,440
to examine this evening.
There’s another quotation we

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00:17:47,440 –> 00:17:50,480
would like to share.
This also is from the same

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00:17:50,600 –> 00:17:54,480
current catechism.
Outside the Church there is no

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00:17:54,480 –> 00:17:58,360
salvation.
For this reason, those who are

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00:17:58,360 –> 00:18:00,520
aware of the fact that the
Catholic Church was made

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00:18:00,520 –> 00:18:04,120
necessary by God through Jesus
Christ would yet refused to

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00:18:04,200 –> 00:18:08,640
enter her or persevere in her
could not be saved.

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00:18:09,520 –> 00:18:12,720
Now that is simply a logical
outcome of what the Catholic

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00:18:12,720 –> 00:18:15,560
community believes is true of
those who minister on her

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00:18:15,560 –> 00:18:19,120
behalf.
All of these rather current

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00:18:19,120 –> 00:18:23,360
statements from authoritative
Catholic documents are concerned

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00:18:23,360 –> 00:18:26,840
with the unique authority
playing for the Catholic Church,

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00:18:27,400 –> 00:18:30,560
and they are in accord with the
former claims made by earlier

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00:18:30,560 –> 00:18:34,560
popes going right back to the
time of the Middle Ages, for

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00:18:34,560 –> 00:18:38,800
example, Pope Boniface the 8th.
We could again show you the

285
00:18:38,800 –> 00:18:43,360
quotation we’re referring to.
Wrote as follows or declared as

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00:18:43,360 –> 00:18:46,320
follows.
Redeclared Stay.

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00:18:46,520 –> 00:18:50,920
The farm pronounced it to be of
necessity to salvation for every

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00:18:50,920 –> 00:18:54,120
human creature to be subject to
the Roman Congress.

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00:18:54,960 –> 00:18:58,160
And that is taken as a citation
from the Encyclopaedia of

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00:18:58,160 –> 00:19:01,240
Biblical Theological and
Ecclesiastical Literature, the

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00:19:01,240 –> 00:19:05,040
69 edition.
So that’s what Pope Boniface

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00:19:05,040 –> 00:19:08,080
declared there, seems to be
quite consistent with what we

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00:19:08,080 –> 00:19:10,800
find in modern current Catholic
literature.

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00:19:12,360 –> 00:19:16,200
That kind of statement again
reinforces the kind of position

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00:19:16,360 –> 00:19:19,480
that we’re concerned about and
want to focus on this evening.

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00:19:20,640 –> 00:19:24,160
Such claims as these for
authority, ladies and gentlemen,

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00:19:24,800 –> 00:19:29,000
establish really the very
foundation of the Catholic

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00:19:29,160 –> 00:19:31,560
conviction and the Catholic
community, of course.

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00:19:32,200 –> 00:19:35,800
And we’ve said before, if these
convictions or claims for

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00:19:35,800 –> 00:19:40,160
special authority are correct,
many people who are professing

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00:19:40,160 –> 00:19:43,840
Christians are sadly astray.
And on the other hand, if they

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00:19:43,840 –> 00:19:47,080
are incorrect and do not
correctly represent Bible

303
00:19:47,080 –> 00:19:51,320
teaching, then there is an
equally tragic constituent

304
00:19:51,320 –> 00:19:56,680
situation.
The issue of authority is going

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00:19:56,680 –> 00:19:59,200
to be central to our
consideration this evening.

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00:19:59,200 –> 00:20:02,480
We’re not going to consider all
the doctrines with which we have

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00:20:02,480 –> 00:20:04,400
some variants.
We’re going to look at that one

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00:20:04,400 –> 00:20:06,280
particular area since it’s so
basic.

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00:20:07,600 –> 00:20:12,160
We could state it this way quite
categorically if the Roman

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00:20:12,240 –> 00:20:16,760
Catholic understanding of its
claims for authority are not

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00:20:16,840 –> 00:20:21,960
endorsed by God himself, if they
contradict.

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00:20:22,520 –> 00:20:26,200
Divine revelation.
There is really serious concern

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00:20:26,200 –> 00:20:31,120
for Roman Catholics to
reappraise their convictions and

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00:20:31,120 –> 00:20:33,600
we leave the verdict, the
seeking to yourselves to

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00:20:33,600 –> 00:20:37,680
consider that sincerely in the
light of divine revelation from

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00:20:37,680 –> 00:20:40,720
the Bible.
Now you may ask at this point,

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00:20:41,720 –> 00:20:45,560
what exactly are we driving at
in this issue of authority?

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00:20:46,400 –> 00:20:49,680
Well, our contention is, ladies
and gentlemen, quite sincerely,

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00:20:50,280 –> 00:20:54,960
that a number of very
fundamental Catholic beliefs and

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00:20:54,960 –> 00:20:59,120
practices are either
contradictory to God’s

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00:20:59,120 –> 00:21:04,120
revelation in the Bible, or they
are practiced without any firm,

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00:21:04,280 –> 00:21:07,400
clear biblical basis.
That is our conviction.

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00:21:08,040 –> 00:21:12,520
And yet, since they are so very
fundamental to Catholic worship,

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00:21:13,120 –> 00:21:17,760
we believe we have every reason
to expect a clear biblical

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00:21:17,760 –> 00:21:20,600
appraisal of them.
And that is really what we have

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00:21:20,600 –> 00:21:23,840
chartered for ourselves this
evening, at least a small way.

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00:21:24,720 –> 00:21:28,400
Let me illustrate what
fundamentals of doctrine I’m

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00:21:28,400 –> 00:21:32,240
referring to.
No Catholic, I’m sure, would

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00:21:32,240 –> 00:21:36,840
deny that the seven sacraments
are the spiritual foundation of

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00:21:36,840 –> 00:21:40,200
a Catholic community.
Anyone who is red Catholic or

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00:21:40,200 –> 00:21:44,600
not anything about the Catholic
basis of conviction, I’m sure

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00:21:44,600 –> 00:21:47,520
we’d be impressed about the
central importance of the seven

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00:21:47,640 –> 00:21:50,440
sacraments.
They could be termed really the

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00:21:50,440 –> 00:21:54,440
seven fundamentals.
We’re referring specifically to

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00:21:54,440 –> 00:21:58,960
the sacrament of baptism,
confirmation, marriage,

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00:21:59,640 –> 00:22:05,120
extremumction, priesthood
penance, and the sacrament of

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00:22:05,120 –> 00:22:09,240
the Eucharist.
Now we might add, by what

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00:22:09,240 –> 00:22:14,280
authority, by what authority are
those seven sacraments

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00:22:14,720 –> 00:22:17,360
established as Catholic
fundamentals?

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00:22:18,400 –> 00:22:22,560
Two of the sacraments that we
just listed provide pointed

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00:22:22,560 –> 00:22:26,040
illustration.
We believe for discussion this

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00:22:26,040 –> 00:22:31,280
evening, the right of
confirmation as one, and the

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00:22:31,280 –> 00:22:35,720
practice of the sacrament of
baptism in the way the sacrament

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00:22:35,760 –> 00:22:38,040
is practiced.
We’d like just to look at those

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00:22:38,040 –> 00:22:40,480
two.
First of all, I’m going to quote

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00:22:40,480 –> 00:22:44,160
again from Lawler’s current
Catholic Catechism.

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00:22:44,480 –> 00:22:47,320
It’s not the only catechism, but
it provides an illustration.

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00:22:48,200 –> 00:22:52,160
This is the 1983 edition, page
462.

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00:22:53,480 –> 00:22:58,520
Not everything the Church
believes is explicitly

350
00:22:58,520 –> 00:23:00,680
articulated in abstract
statement.

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00:23:03,080 –> 00:23:09,800
The faith can be embodied in its
attitudes and right before it is

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00:23:10,040 –> 00:23:13,560
explicitly formulated.
This is certainly the case with

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00:23:13,560 –> 00:23:20,480
the Sacrament of Confirmation.
The Gospels contain no direct

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00:23:20,680 –> 00:23:25,640
teaching on it as they do the
Eucharist, Baptism and

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00:23:26,000 –> 00:23:30,120
repentance.
Now that we believe, is a very

356
00:23:30,120 –> 00:23:34,640
important statement to weigh.
Here we have one of the seven

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00:23:34,640 –> 00:23:38,320
sacraments of the Catholic
community granted by all

358
00:23:38,320 –> 00:23:42,360
Catholics as being very
fundamental at the centre and

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00:23:42,360 –> 00:23:44,680
core of their community, part of
their foundation.

360
00:23:45,280 –> 00:23:48,560
And yet in our current
Catechism, with full approval of

361
00:23:48,560 –> 00:23:52,840
the Church, the admission is
made that there is, and again we

362
00:23:52,840 –> 00:23:57,480
quote in the Gospel, no direct
teaching on one of these

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00:23:57,480 –> 00:24:02,800
sacraments.
Now what we believe is that the

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00:24:02,800 –> 00:24:05,640
Bible should be brought into our
concern.

365
00:24:05,640 –> 00:24:10,040
Here we find that as
Christadelphians, as students of

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00:24:10,040 –> 00:24:14,040
the Bible, to be a rather
alarming admission or statement.

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00:24:14,520 –> 00:24:16,920
We would like to consider that
along with a few others this

368
00:24:16,920 –> 00:24:20,840
evening.
You notice something else that

369
00:24:20,840 –> 00:24:25,200
is said, that not everything the
church believes is explicitly

370
00:24:25,280 –> 00:24:30,200
articulated in abstract Satan,
The faith can be embodied in its

371
00:24:30,280 –> 00:24:34,400
attitudes and rites before it is
explicitly formulated.

372
00:24:35,720 –> 00:24:38,280
Now the Bible, we believe as we
look at it this evening, and

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00:24:38,280 –> 00:24:42,240
we’ll share this with you, seems
to stress one very clear and

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00:24:42,240 –> 00:24:44,960
obvious principle from the words
of Christ, his example of

375
00:24:44,960 –> 00:24:48,320
teaching and from the example of
the apostles, that anything that

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00:24:48,320 –> 00:24:51,560
is basic to to salvation,
anything that is foundational

377
00:24:52,080 –> 00:24:56,440
can be expected indeed to be
found explicitly and clearly in

378
00:24:56,440 –> 00:24:59,920
the Bible.
So we would take issue with that

379
00:25:00,880 –> 00:25:02,600
temporarily.
Let’s look at another quote.

380
00:25:05,000 –> 00:25:07,480
Perhaps we could just put up one
more quotation.

381
00:25:08,320 –> 00:25:13,520
This is from page 458.
You got that one.

382
00:25:13,720 –> 00:25:18,640
We got that up there.
See, I’m looking at the church

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00:25:18,640 –> 00:25:21,880
has solemnly defined.
I want that one.

384
00:25:21,880 –> 00:25:23,800
All right, I’ll quote it then.
Sorry, I thought we had that

385
00:25:23,800 –> 00:25:25,520
one.
Page 458.

386
00:25:25,600 –> 00:25:29,440
Ladies and gentlemen of the same
catechism, Lawler writes.

387
00:25:29,920 –> 00:25:36,120
The Church has solemnly defined
the validity of infant baptism.

388
00:25:37,080 –> 00:25:42,520
In fact, the Church law commands
Catholics to have their children

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00:25:42,520 –> 00:25:46,120
baptized within the first weeks
after birth.

390
00:25:47,440 –> 00:25:52,240
In any case, Lawler writes,
infant baptism clearly was

391
00:25:52,240 –> 00:25:57,160
practiced very early origin.
Writing in the 3rd century

392
00:25:57,600 –> 00:26:02,400
expressly states the Church’s
tradition of baptizing infants

393
00:26:02,720 –> 00:26:07,200
as it came from the apostles.
Now again, here’s one of the

394
00:26:07,200 –> 00:26:11,000
other con, one of the other
sacraments that we referred to.

395
00:26:11,000 –> 00:26:14,240
It’s one of the seven, along
with the one we just considered.

396
00:26:15,120 –> 00:26:20,240
And the particular form of
baptism as it is practiced in

397
00:26:20,240 –> 00:26:24,800
the sacrament of baptism, infant
sprinkling, or infant baptism,

398
00:26:25,520 –> 00:26:29,600
is something admitted to be
something that comes from

399
00:26:29,640 –> 00:26:32,880
tradition rather than from a
direct biblical statement.

400
00:26:33,320 –> 00:26:36,240
I read the key line again from
Lawler’s Catechism.

401
00:26:36,720 –> 00:26:41,640
In any case, infant baptism
clearly was practiced very

402
00:26:41,640 –> 00:26:44,720
early.
Origin writing in the 3rd

403
00:26:44,720 –> 00:26:49,720
century expressly states the
Church’s tradition of baptizing

404
00:26:49,720 –> 00:26:54,120
infants came from the apostles.
But you see, there is an

405
00:26:54,120 –> 00:26:57,200
invasion of what we would regard
as a very important point.

406
00:26:58,160 –> 00:27:02,280
What Origin said in the 3rd
century is second hand in a

407
00:27:02,280 –> 00:27:06,800
certain sense, something as
centrally important to a child’s

408
00:27:06,800 –> 00:27:10,800
salvation as baptism.
And the particular form of

409
00:27:10,800 –> 00:27:14,440
baptism that Christ wishes a
child to experience through the

410
00:27:14,440 –> 00:27:18,200
Church is something that’s very
fundamental and important.

411
00:27:19,080 –> 00:27:23,640
And yet, if we can’t find clear
Scripture to indicate what form

412
00:27:23,640 –> 00:27:27,120
of baptism the Catholic
community uses, then again we

413
00:27:27,120 –> 00:27:30,200
feel as being students of the
Bible and respecting its

414
00:27:30,200 –> 00:27:35,560
authoritative voice, we have
reason for strong concern as

415
00:27:35,560 –> 00:27:37,400
people who respect the Word of
God.

416
00:27:37,400 –> 00:27:40,960
We would appeal to take
sacraments such as the two we’ve

417
00:27:40,960 –> 00:27:44,200
just looked at, and look at them
carefully in terms of what the

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00:27:44,200 –> 00:27:48,000
Bible does say, not only about
baptism, whether you should or

419
00:27:48,000 –> 00:27:51,720
should not be baptized, but
about the particular form of

420
00:27:51,720 –> 00:27:53,880
baptism that is really
acceptable.

421
00:27:55,320 –> 00:28:00,120
We’d like to refer to another
quotation, this time again from

422
00:28:00,160 –> 00:28:03,520
a very well respected Roman
Catholic, on the subject of

423
00:28:03,520 –> 00:28:06,560
baptism.
This is taken from the book

424
00:28:06,560 –> 00:28:10,720
called Enthusiasm by Monsignor
Knox.

425
00:28:10,720 –> 00:28:13,840
Now Knox was responsible for
what was called the Knox

426
00:28:13,880 –> 00:28:17,440
Catholic translation.
He was a prolific writer in his

427
00:28:17,440 –> 00:28:19,760
own days.
He wrote mostly in the 1930s and

428
00:28:19,760 –> 00:28:24,360
40s, and his translation up
until only the last few years

429
00:28:24,360 –> 00:28:27,360
was regarded as one of the best
Catholic translations, the Knox

430
00:28:27,360 –> 00:28:31,400
translation, and he says this in
his book on Enthusiasm, page

431
00:28:31,400 –> 00:28:36,920
134.
It is not by any means easy to

432
00:28:37,000 –> 00:28:41,960
prove the doctrine of infant
factorism if you are based in

433
00:28:41,960 –> 00:28:48,360
your argument on the Bible only,
without any appeal to tradition.

434
00:28:49,480 –> 00:28:52,720
So here’s Knox, a well respected
writer in the Catholic

435
00:28:52,720 –> 00:28:57,520
community, noting that when you
really get down to it, but

436
00:28:57,520 –> 00:29:03,240
confirmation, well, really the
baptism itself of the child, the

437
00:29:03,240 –> 00:29:06,840
form of baptism regarded as
central to the church’s

438
00:29:06,840 –> 00:29:12,120
sacrament of baptism is in form
not clearly established in

439
00:29:12,120 –> 00:29:14,200
Scripture.
Here we’re not talking about

440
00:29:14,200 –> 00:29:17,320
whether he should be baptized or
not, but the form of baptism in

441
00:29:17,320 –> 00:29:21,240
particular, baptizing infant
within a very short period after

442
00:29:21,240 –> 00:29:24,120
they’ve been born.
He admits really there isn’t any

443
00:29:24,120 –> 00:29:29,560
clear cut scriptural indication,
but instead without any apology,

444
00:29:29,560 –> 00:29:34,080
of course, as a believing Roman
Catholic, he relies instead on

445
00:29:34,080 –> 00:29:38,520
The Voice of tradition, which
certainly he believes is

446
00:29:38,520 –> 00:29:42,320
sufficient grounds.
Now again, in terms of what

447
00:29:42,320 –> 00:29:44,880
where we’re coming from this
evening as Christadelphians and

448
00:29:44,880 –> 00:29:49,520
what is the basis of our appeal,
we find personally that kind of

449
00:29:49,520 –> 00:29:53,280
admission for such a fundamental
doctrine to be rather

450
00:29:53,280 –> 00:29:56,880
disturbing.
The meaning and the importance

451
00:29:56,960 –> 00:30:01,280
of course, which the Catholic
Church attaches to tradition.

452
00:30:01,720 –> 00:30:06,080
The meaning which Knox of course
attaches to tradition is rather

453
00:30:06,080 –> 00:30:09,160
essential.
I’m sure you’d agree to consider

454
00:30:09,360 –> 00:30:12,560
in order to understand Knox’s
own conviction about this and

455
00:30:12,560 –> 00:30:15,520
why he would feel without
apology, although he can’t turn

456
00:30:15,520 –> 00:30:17,600
to the Bible, he could turn to
tradition.

457
00:30:18,080 –> 00:30:21,320
So we’ve got to concern
ourselves with what the Church

458
00:30:21,320 –> 00:30:24,880
means by tradition.
We noted that the seven

459
00:30:24,880 –> 00:30:28,800
sacraments already are rather
fundamental, to say the least, a

460
00:30:28,800 –> 00:30:32,080
Catholic belief.
But really, if there is a

461
00:30:32,080 –> 00:30:36,120
doctrine that is in turn
fundamental to the seven

462
00:30:36,120 –> 00:30:39,480
sacraments, it would be the
belief in the immortality of the

463
00:30:39,480 –> 00:30:43,480
soul as an essential part of
man’s being.

464
00:30:44,400 –> 00:30:49,280
You see, the very role of the
seven sacraments is in fact to

465
00:30:49,280 –> 00:30:53,560
administer Sacramento Grace to
the individual soul.

466
00:30:54,240 –> 00:30:58,960
When a believing Catholic is
receiving one of the seven

467
00:30:58,960 –> 00:31:03,160
sacraments, it is understood or
believed that what is happening

468
00:31:03,160 –> 00:31:06,120
in the administering of one of
the sacraments is that a

469
00:31:06,120 –> 00:31:11,280
Sacramento Grace is being
infused by the mediation of the

470
00:31:11,280 –> 00:31:15,240
priest through that sacrament to
the soul of the recipient.

471
00:31:16,280 –> 00:31:19,760
So that the concept of the
immortal soul is fundamental, as

472
00:31:19,760 –> 00:31:23,680
it were, an underlining burden
principle underneath and holding

473
00:31:23,680 –> 00:31:25,960
together really the seven
sacraments.

474
00:31:26,720 –> 00:31:31,040
And in a current publication by
the Catholic Church, the

475
00:31:31,040 –> 00:31:34,280
question of the immortal soul is
discussed in terms of its

476
00:31:34,280 –> 00:31:38,160
biblical basis.
I’m referring particularly to

477
00:31:38,400 –> 00:31:41,680
this pamphlet.
It’s written to another

478
00:31:41,720 –> 00:31:45,200
community, and the Catholic
Church is trying to answer some

479
00:31:45,200 –> 00:31:49,240
of the community’s objections to
the Catholic understanding of an

480
00:31:49,240 –> 00:31:51,560
immortal soul.
I’m going to quote from this

481
00:31:51,560 –> 00:31:53,000
pamphlet.
We’ll use our overhead.

482
00:31:53,800 –> 00:31:58,160
Some beliefs have to be wrong.
In that pamphlet.

483
00:31:59,480 –> 00:32:04,720
The Catholic writer says it, the
Old Testament word nayfech,

484
00:32:05,120 –> 00:32:08,160
that’s the word for soul in the
Old Testament, the Hebrew word

485
00:32:08,160 –> 00:32:11,320
for soul.
The Old Testament, we could say

486
00:32:11,320 –> 00:32:17,040
the Hebrew word nepesh simply
meant a living soul, and the

487
00:32:17,040 –> 00:32:24,720
Hebrew would use the same word
for any living being, animal or

488
00:32:24,960 –> 00:32:29,040
human.
Now what’s being said there is

489
00:32:29,040 –> 00:32:34,160
that in the view of the
community looking at the Old

490
00:32:34,160 –> 00:32:37,640
Testament fairly, there is an
admission being put on the

491
00:32:37,640 –> 00:32:40,600
table.
When we look at how the Old

492
00:32:40,600 –> 00:32:46,040
Testament uses the word soul,
the Hebrew word nephesh, it uses

493
00:32:46,040 –> 00:32:49,120
it in a very elastic way.
That’s being admitted.

494
00:32:49,680 –> 00:32:54,720
In fact, it is so elastic they
are suggesting that it could be

495
00:32:54,720 –> 00:32:59,800
used to describe any living
being, animal or human.

496
00:32:59,920 –> 00:33:02,960
We would concur with that.
One takes the Bible concordance

497
00:33:03,000 –> 00:33:05,960
and looks up the word soul, or
the word nay fashion in Hebrew,

498
00:33:06,280 –> 00:33:08,200
sees how it’s used in the Old
Testament.

499
00:33:08,200 –> 00:33:13,080
It is very eloctic and it is
used to describe animal as well

500
00:33:13,080 –> 00:33:14,840
as human.
We might add.

501
00:33:15,640 –> 00:33:21,120
Why would soul be used to
describe a animal if it’s

502
00:33:21,120 –> 00:33:23,640
something that’s immortal or
intangible?

503
00:33:24,040 –> 00:33:28,600
If it’s a spark, as it were,
from the divine, that is infused

504
00:33:28,640 –> 00:33:32,520
into the child at a certain
point near or after conception,

505
00:33:33,880 –> 00:33:37,800
how could it be describing an
animal in any sense if it is a

506
00:33:37,800 –> 00:33:41,760
spark of the divine, something
that supposedly marks man out as

507
00:33:41,760 –> 00:33:44,240
being different than animal
creation?

508
00:33:45,160 –> 00:33:52,160
Page 10 of the same pamphlet.
Thus we read, whereas the Bible

509
00:33:52,160 –> 00:33:54,000
does not.
It is true.

510
00:33:54,760 –> 00:33:59,800
Think of the immortality of the
human soul, a concept which it

511
00:33:59,800 –> 00:34:02,720
does not have in our sense of
this word.

512
00:34:04,040 –> 00:34:07,680
It does speak of the immortality
of the human person.

513
00:34:08,560 –> 00:34:12,400
Frankly, I’m not too sure what
that last line means, but we

514
00:34:12,400 –> 00:34:16,600
believe that the basic admission
is rather important, and we

515
00:34:16,600 –> 00:34:18,120
would find that rather
disturbing.

516
00:34:20,040 –> 00:34:23,840
What we have found is so far in
looking at two of the seven

517
00:34:23,840 –> 00:34:27,600
sacraments that at least on two
of them, it’s admitted there is

518
00:34:27,600 –> 00:34:31,760
no direct biblical evidence for
the Catholic community’s

519
00:34:31,760 –> 00:34:35,159
understanding of that sacrament
or the way it is practiced.

520
00:34:35,840 –> 00:34:40,639
We have seen that underneath all
the seven sacraments is the

521
00:34:40,679 –> 00:34:44,920
undergirding conviction that man
has in a mortal soul to which

522
00:34:44,920 –> 00:34:46,960
the seven sacraments are
administered.

523
00:34:47,480 –> 00:34:51,360
The seven sacraments are viewed
as 7 channel through which

524
00:34:51,719 –> 00:34:55,520
through which divine energy is
administered through the priest

525
00:34:55,520 –> 00:35:00,720
pen to the recipient.
And yet it is also admitted that

526
00:35:00,720 –> 00:35:06,360
even the concept of the immortal
soul does not have an Old

527
00:35:06,360 –> 00:35:10,400
Testament basis whatsoever.
There’s no clear indication of

528
00:35:10,400 –> 00:35:12,360
it.
Again, I guess one would have to

529
00:35:12,360 –> 00:35:19,240
refer to tradition.
Now with those admissions in

530
00:35:19,240 –> 00:35:23,280
mind, we can sort of crystallize
the central concern of our

531
00:35:23,280 –> 00:35:28,560
lecture in matters basic to
salvation, such as the seven

532
00:35:28,560 –> 00:35:32,160
sacraments and the undergirding
conviction that is there with

533
00:35:32,160 –> 00:35:35,880
the immortal soul.
We see Catholic spokesman now

534
00:35:35,880 –> 00:35:40,200
admitting in current literature
that a number them lack a clear

535
00:35:40,240 –> 00:35:43,600
or a direct or an explicit
biblical basis.

536
00:35:44,440 –> 00:35:49,360
And then if we were to ask on
what authoritative basis are

537
00:35:49,360 –> 00:35:54,160
such convictions or forms of
conviction held, the Catholic

538
00:35:54,160 –> 00:35:58,120
response would be on the basis
of Catholic tradition.

539
00:35:59,400 –> 00:36:05,240
So then a tradition admitted of
course to be outside of direct

540
00:36:05,240 –> 00:36:09,960
biblical revelation is seen to
supplement biblical revelation,

541
00:36:10,560 –> 00:36:13,480
not to be in contradiction to
biblical revelation.

542
00:36:13,480 –> 00:36:17,080
A Catholic would certainly
stress tradition is viewed as

543
00:36:17,080 –> 00:36:22,120
being harmoniously married with
divine revelation in the Bible

544
00:36:22,120 –> 00:36:25,920
and not seen to be at variance.
So the really to many Catholics,

545
00:36:25,920 –> 00:36:29,600
there’s no apology for the fact
that such fundamental doctrines

546
00:36:30,120 –> 00:36:34,560
are not not all of the many ways
on a firm or direct obvious

547
00:36:34,680 –> 00:36:38,560
explicit biblical basis.
Tradition is seen as another

548
00:36:38,560 –> 00:36:41,480
form of divine revelation and is
equally authoritative.

549
00:36:42,120 –> 00:36:44,680
I think that perhaps
crystallizes some of the

550
00:36:45,000 –> 00:36:48,160
statements and some of the
reasons why Knox and others

551
00:36:48,320 –> 00:36:51,040
freely make those admissions
without apology.

552
00:36:52,600 –> 00:36:58,480
John O’Brien, in faith of
millions, helps us to see where

553
00:36:58,560 –> 00:37:03,240
the Catholic Church places the
importance of tradition next to

554
00:37:03,280 –> 00:37:05,360
the Bible, which is our next
concern.

555
00:37:05,360 –> 00:37:06,840
Let’s see if we can crystallize
that.

556
00:37:07,600 –> 00:37:13,560
Could we have the next overhead,
Page 186 of the faith of

557
00:37:13,560 –> 00:37:18,160
millions?
There are certain truths, he

558
00:37:18,160 –> 00:37:22,960
says, which are not recorded in
the Scriptures, but which are

559
00:37:22,960 –> 00:37:27,000
embodied in the life, the
practice, and the ministry of

560
00:37:27,000 –> 00:37:34,240
the Church in her written and
unwritten traditions which

561
00:37:34,440 –> 00:37:39,720
supplement the biblical record.
She, meaning the Church, of

562
00:37:39,720 –> 00:37:44,360
course, is not dependent on it
meaning the Bible for her

563
00:37:44,360 –> 00:37:48,440
existence, nor is she limited in
her doctrine to it.

564
00:37:49,600 –> 00:37:53,040
So then, tradition and Catholic
definition, and this is a fairly

565
00:37:53,040 –> 00:37:56,080
typical quote, is not seen to be
at variance.

566
00:37:56,280 –> 00:38:00,680
It is seen to supplement the
biblical record and the Church

567
00:38:00,680 –> 00:38:05,680
claims that she is not dependent
on biblical revelation in

568
00:38:05,680 –> 00:38:10,600
particular for her existence.
So that concerning another

569
00:38:10,600 –> 00:38:15,120
doctrine, such as purgatory, A
doctrine really that is quite

570
00:38:15,120 –> 00:38:19,800
related, quite related really to
the Catholic community’s view of

571
00:38:19,800 –> 00:38:23,200
what happens to a man when he
dies and how the Catholic Church

572
00:38:23,240 –> 00:38:27,440
views the nature of man.
A Catholic writer could say this

573
00:38:27,440 –> 00:38:31,000
if we could just use this
quotation on purgatory.

574
00:38:32,760 –> 00:38:37,920
Again, the same cataclysm.
The word purgatory is not in the

575
00:38:37,920 –> 00:38:41,960
Bible, nor is the doctrine of
purgatory explicitly taught

576
00:38:41,960 –> 00:38:45,480
there.
Notice this time we’re not just

577
00:38:45,480 –> 00:38:48,400
looking at the Old Testament.
As with the case of the soul

578
00:38:49,080 –> 00:38:53,160
here, a current Catholic
catechism, this one is saying

579
00:38:53,160 –> 00:38:57,280
that a concept or a belief so
fundamental to man’s

580
00:38:57,280 –> 00:38:59,840
understanding of the nature of
man and what happens to him

581
00:38:59,840 –> 00:39:05,200
after death, where he goes, if
anywhere, is described in non

582
00:39:05,240 –> 00:39:11,000
biblical terms and it’s admitted
that really neither the word nor

583
00:39:11,080 –> 00:39:14,040
the concept or the doctrine is
taught there.

584
00:39:15,080 –> 00:39:19,000
Again, without apology, the
Catechism would direct us, as it

585
00:39:19,000 –> 00:39:21,520
does in the Catechism, to
tradition.

586
00:39:22,120 –> 00:39:24,840
So then you see a certain
perhaps number of pieces falling

587
00:39:24,840 –> 00:39:27,480
together, especially for those
of us that don’t come with a

588
00:39:27,480 –> 00:39:31,920
Catholic background.
Tradition is viewed in very high

589
00:39:31,920 –> 00:39:37,600
esteem and it is viewed as a
supplement, you see, to what is

590
00:39:37,600 –> 00:39:40,080
not there sometimes in the
biblical record.

591
00:39:41,240 –> 00:39:44,520
Now another quotation that again
makes this concept a little

592
00:39:44,520 –> 00:39:48,040
clearer.
Page 176.

593
00:39:48,040 –> 00:39:51,080
I’m going to refer to John
O’Brien’s writings again from

594
00:39:51,080 –> 00:39:56,160
the faith of millions.
She the Catholic Church is not

595
00:39:56,160 –> 00:40:02,040
the child of the Bible as many
non Catholics imagine, but its

596
00:40:02,040 –> 00:40:04,880
mother.
She derived neither her

597
00:40:04,880 –> 00:40:07,320
existence nor her teaching
authority from the New

598
00:40:07,320 –> 00:40:13,040
Testament.
She had both before the New

599
00:40:13,040 –> 00:40:17,280
Testament was born.
We said at the outset of our

600
00:40:17,280 –> 00:40:21,240
address that the Catholic Church
makes a number of claims for

601
00:40:21,240 –> 00:40:25,120
herself that are rather unique.
This again illustrates the

602
00:40:25,120 –> 00:40:29,760
uniqueness of such a posture.
Another Catholic writer, a man

603
00:40:29,760 –> 00:40:32,240
called Wilford Dewan, and I have
his book here.

604
00:40:32,240 –> 00:40:35,960
It’s a current book.
It’s used for Catholic study

605
00:40:35,960 –> 00:40:42,640
Circle on page 88.
Tradition, The life and

606
00:40:42,640 –> 00:40:46,520
consciousness of the whole
Church, is the necessary

607
00:40:46,880 –> 00:40:52,960
interpreter of the scriptural
message, the Word of God in the

608
00:40:52,960 –> 00:40:59,240
church, in the Church.
Notice, clarify and interpret

609
00:40:59,320 –> 00:41:04,800
the Word of God in Scripture.
Now we see perhaps a fuller

610
00:41:04,800 –> 00:41:08,000
picture coming into focus here.
For those of us who are non

611
00:41:08,000 –> 00:41:12,200
Catholics especially, but just
perhaps being exposed to this

612
00:41:12,200 –> 00:41:17,240
perception for the first time,
it’s not quite true to say that

613
00:41:17,240 –> 00:41:20,560
tradition and Scripture are
exactly on a par.

614
00:41:21,000 –> 00:41:24,400
This is apparent from this
quotation and many others that

615
00:41:24,400 –> 00:41:28,000
could supplement it.
Tradition and Scripture are not

616
00:41:28,000 –> 00:41:31,240
viewed as being contradictory,
nor are they viewed as being at

617
00:41:31,240 –> 00:41:34,440
variance.
But on the other hand, a close

618
00:41:34,440 –> 00:41:38,280
examination of Catholic writing
shows they’re not exactly viewed

619
00:41:38,280 –> 00:41:42,760
as being equal either.
Tradition really is being viewed

620
00:41:42,800 –> 00:41:47,960
as the interpreter of the Bible.
The Bible, in other words, is

621
00:41:47,960 –> 00:41:52,200
somewhat subject to the voice of
the Church, to the interpretive

622
00:41:52,400 –> 00:41:56,200
voice of the Church, some
Catholics would say, to the

623
00:41:56,440 –> 00:42:01,600
living voice of tradition, the
so-called living voice of

624
00:42:01,600 –> 00:42:05,400
tradition.
In a certain sense, overseas

625
00:42:05,600 –> 00:42:09,160
interpretations of the Bible.
It is regarded as the divine

626
00:42:09,160 –> 00:42:12,440
hand telling us what to believe
about the Bible, how to

627
00:42:12,440 –> 00:42:15,880
understand it, how to apply it,
and of course, to supplement.

628
00:42:16,680 –> 00:42:20,800
But such a statement, and it’s
typical, shows that not exactly

629
00:42:20,800 –> 00:42:23,280
on an even plane.
In fact, we’ll show you a number

630
00:42:23,280 –> 00:42:27,560
of quotations that show that
tradition is viewed as being

631
00:42:27,560 –> 00:42:32,120
all-encompassing and bringing
into its embrace or its circle

632
00:42:32,480 –> 00:42:35,640
the Bible as being one form of
divine revelation.

633
00:42:35,720 –> 00:42:40,520
But there are others.
Let’s just take a look O’Brien

634
00:42:41,000 –> 00:42:43,360
the one of his earlier editions
on the faith of milling.

635
00:42:44,440 –> 00:42:50,280
The only authority he says which
non Catholic have for the

636
00:42:50,280 –> 00:42:54,560
inspiration of scriptures is the
authority of the Catholic

637
00:42:54,560 –> 00:42:57,440
Church.
Very important claim.

638
00:42:58,480 –> 00:43:01,920
We regard that as being rather
unique compared to most of

639
00:43:01,920 –> 00:43:03,760
Christendom.
Don’t know of any other church

640
00:43:03,800 –> 00:43:09,080
that would quite express it that
way, that their church in fact

641
00:43:09,080 –> 00:43:13,120
was the only church or the first
church for the main authority

642
00:43:13,280 –> 00:43:16,040
upon which we know is non
Catholic, that the Bible’s

643
00:43:16,040 –> 00:43:18,200
inspired.
And again, that is not an

644
00:43:18,200 –> 00:43:21,720
isolated quotation and I would
invite anyone to take a look at

645
00:43:21,760 –> 00:43:23,520
full context of that.
We have a number of these on

646
00:43:23,520 –> 00:43:25,840
Xerox.
Let’s take a look at another

647
00:43:25,840 –> 00:43:31,040
quote.
Again, O’Brien says if she the

648
00:43:31,040 –> 00:43:35,240
Catholic Church, had not
declared the books composing the

649
00:43:35,240 –> 00:43:39,800
New Testament to be the inspired
Word of God, we would not know

650
00:43:39,800 –> 00:43:43,640
it.
A unique and very authoritative

651
00:43:43,640 –> 00:43:47,680
claim, but it is, in view of the
Catholic community, quite

652
00:43:47,680 –> 00:43:51,080
consistent.
It is a consistent claim since

653
00:43:51,600 –> 00:43:54,960
the Catholic community believes
that they are the true

654
00:43:54,960 –> 00:43:58,160
representative of Christ on
earth, and since they believe

655
00:43:58,160 –> 00:44:02,320
they have a consistent link to
the early apostle right back to

656
00:44:02,320 –> 00:44:06,760
Peter, and since they believe
it’s essential to salvation to

657
00:44:06,760 –> 00:44:10,200
know, understand, accept, and
practice Catholic belief.

658
00:44:10,480 –> 00:44:14,800
It’s consistent for a Catholic
to make that kind of state

659
00:44:15,480 –> 00:44:18,000
because they regard themselves
as being, in a certain sense,

660
00:44:18,000 –> 00:44:23,120
the mother of the Bible.
Let’s look at another quotation

661
00:44:24,480 –> 00:44:29,480
again, O’Brien, just as the
Supreme Court is the authorized

662
00:44:30,160 –> 00:44:34,800
living interpreter of the
Constitution, so the Catholic

663
00:44:34,800 –> 00:44:39,000
Church is the living
authoritative interpreter of the

664
00:44:39,000 –> 00:44:42,160
Bible.
Now notice at this juncture,

665
00:44:43,160 –> 00:44:47,760
this is really indirectly
referring to what is regarded as

666
00:44:48,000 –> 00:44:51,000
the living tradition, the living
voice of the Church.

667
00:44:52,080 –> 00:44:55,800
The stress is on the word
living, you see, because the

668
00:44:55,800 –> 00:44:59,600
Catholic Church believes that
those who minister on her behalf

669
00:45:00,520 –> 00:45:02,400
have a direct connection with
God.

670
00:45:02,800 –> 00:45:05,640
Because they believe the Holy
Spirit works in and through

671
00:45:05,640 –> 00:45:08,200
their magisterium, their
officiating people.

672
00:45:08,720 –> 00:45:10,880
Because that is their
conviction.

673
00:45:11,600 –> 00:45:14,880
Because they believe the Holy
Spirit works today to guide the

674
00:45:14,880 –> 00:45:18,080
Spirit’s interpretation.
Because they believe that

675
00:45:18,080 –> 00:45:22,680
tradition is ongoing and living
and dynamic and fluid.

676
00:45:22,720 –> 00:45:27,800
In that sense, they see
tradition really as being a kind

677
00:45:27,800 –> 00:45:32,200
of adjudicator over this.
Again, they don’t think to be in

678
00:45:32,200 –> 00:45:35,520
contradiction with the Bible,
but rather it overseas

679
00:45:35,520 –> 00:45:39,040
interpretations of the Bible.
It tells its people how the

680
00:45:39,040 –> 00:45:42,160
Bible is to be interpreted.
The Bible, in other words, does

681
00:45:42,160 –> 00:45:45,200
not or is not left on its own to
interpret itself.

682
00:45:45,680 –> 00:45:48,560
We don’t necessarily compare
Scripture with Scripture to come

683
00:45:48,560 –> 00:45:52,960
to a conclusion or a definition.
The church can provide that for

684
00:45:52,960 –> 00:45:55,080
us.
It is the claim of the Church,

685
00:45:56,240 –> 00:45:59,720
these kind of quotations and one
more that perhaps provides a

686
00:45:59,720 –> 00:46:01,400
clear focus for what we’re
saying.

687
00:46:03,480 –> 00:46:07,400
O’Brien, consistent to his own
argument, and it’s consistent

688
00:46:07,400 –> 00:46:10,960
with many Catholic writers on
this subject, finally comes to

689
00:46:10,960 –> 00:46:15,800
this rather direct statement.
The simple fact is that the

690
00:46:15,800 –> 00:46:20,000
Bible, like all dead letters,
calls for a living interpreter.

691
00:46:21,040 –> 00:46:24,240
That’s not regarded as being
disparaging, not by Catholics

692
00:46:24,240 –> 00:46:26,920
anyone, anyway.
It’s not regarded as being a

693
00:46:26,920 –> 00:46:28,600
disparaging statement of the
Bible.

694
00:46:29,120 –> 00:46:32,360
They do believe this is divine
revelation, indeed, but they

695
00:46:32,360 –> 00:46:35,840
believe in a certain sense it is
only inked on paper.

696
00:46:35,960 –> 00:46:40,320
In that sense, it’s dead.
It is regarded by the Catholic

697
00:46:40,320 –> 00:46:46,200
Church as necessitating a
living, dynamic force to bring

698
00:46:46,200 –> 00:46:50,600
it alive, to make it meaningful,
and to describe and define and

699
00:46:50,640 –> 00:46:54,000
constrive exactly how it’s to be
applied and how it’s to be

700
00:46:54,000 –> 00:46:58,560
understood.
Now we’ve attempted to give the

701
00:46:58,560 –> 00:47:01,960
Catholic viewpoint, ladies and
gentlemen, a fair

702
00:47:01,960 –> 00:47:05,880
representation.
We have tried to make sure that

703
00:47:05,880 –> 00:47:09,640
any of the books we refer to are
as current as possible, are by

704
00:47:09,640 –> 00:47:12,760
respected and well known
Catholic writers, and that they

705
00:47:12,760 –> 00:47:15,880
do have the imprimatur, the
approval of the Nil Hill

706
00:47:15,880 –> 00:47:19,720
obstacle.
Let’s see if we can now bring

707
00:47:19,720 –> 00:47:22,280
some of those quotations to a
kind of focus.

708
00:47:22,560 –> 00:47:25,800
We want to crystallize some of
the main contentions of those

709
00:47:25,800 –> 00:47:30,040
folks, which represent how the
Church in most cases would

710
00:47:30,040 –> 00:47:32,360
define her authority as she
views it.

711
00:47:32,640 –> 00:47:35,640
We would see the first if we
could just open the screen, the

712
00:47:35,680 –> 00:47:39,160
first window.
It would seem from such

713
00:47:39,160 –> 00:47:43,400
quotation, which we believe are
fair and representative, that

714
00:47:43,400 –> 00:47:46,680
the Bible, according to the
Catholic community really does

715
00:47:46,680 –> 00:47:49,800
not have any authority on its
own merit.

716
00:47:51,320 –> 00:47:55,520
The presider over the Bible is
the living voice of the Church.

717
00:47:55,520 –> 00:48:00,360
In this view, the Church with
its living voice is the dynamic

718
00:48:00,600 –> 00:48:04,560
interpreter of the dead letter.
And if it wasn’t for the Mother

719
00:48:04,560 –> 00:48:08,200
Church, we would know, according
to O’Brien, that that was an

720
00:48:08,200 –> 00:48:11,560
inspired book because we know
it, because it’s come from the

721
00:48:11,560 –> 00:48:15,600
Church.
Secondly, another contention

722
00:48:15,600 –> 00:48:17,760
would be, I think, fairly
representing the point.

723
00:48:18,400 –> 00:48:21,680
The Bible is regarded as a kind
of dead letter and a certain

724
00:48:21,680 –> 00:48:25,080
qualified sense apart from the
living voice of the church.

725
00:48:26,080 –> 00:48:33,240
Thirdly, tradition or the oral
message is regarded as having a

726
00:48:33,240 –> 00:48:37,320
kind of priority over the
written word in the sense that

727
00:48:37,320 –> 00:48:41,000
it is the living interpreter, in
the sense that it embraces

728
00:48:41,120 –> 00:48:44,480
divine revelation in the Bible,
but including others as well, it

729
00:48:44,480 –> 00:48:51,040
is an all embracing term.
Fourthly, perhaps we should just

730
00:48:51,520 –> 00:48:52,760
maybe just put that up a little
bit.

731
00:48:52,880 –> 00:48:55,400
Thank you.
Saving power.

732
00:48:56,440 –> 00:48:59,840
Saving power, we qualify.
That can be administered

733
00:48:59,960 –> 00:49:03,360
apparently through the church,
apart from the direct

734
00:49:03,600 –> 00:49:08,880
interaction with the Bible.
Now, that comes quite obviously

735
00:49:09,240 –> 00:49:11,600
from a number of O’Brien
statements and from some of the

736
00:49:11,600 –> 00:49:15,200
others we’ve looked at.
We’d like to look at those major

737
00:49:15,200 –> 00:49:18,440
contentions, then, for the
remainder of our address, all of

738
00:49:18,440 –> 00:49:21,400
which focus on foundations of
the Catholic belief.

739
00:49:23,200 –> 00:49:24,920
Let’s look at these four
implications.

740
00:49:26,080 –> 00:49:31,120
Let’s open our Bibles and see
whether they each harmonize with

741
00:49:31,120 –> 00:49:34,080
biblical revelation.
We ought not to find it in

742
00:49:34,080 –> 00:49:36,000
contradiction to biblical
revelation.

743
00:49:36,920 –> 00:49:39,480
Let’s look at #1 in the light of
Bible teaching.

744
00:49:40,680 –> 00:49:43,360
If you have a Bible, we’d
appreciate it that you turn with

745
00:49:43,360 –> 00:49:50,240
us to this statement by the
Apostle Paul, Second Timothy

746
00:49:50,240 –> 00:49:57,080
chapter 3, a very important
Bible quotation central to New

747
00:49:57,080 –> 00:50:00,360
Testament teaching.
If you don’t have a Bible, we’ll

748
00:50:00,360 –> 00:50:02,840
project it for you and then come
back to the four points.

749
00:50:04,320 –> 00:50:06,600
Second Timothy chapter 3 reads
us.

750
00:50:06,600 –> 00:50:14,840
Follow if I go back to verse 15
for the context of Second

751
00:50:14,840 –> 00:50:19,000
Timothy three we read Paul
writing to Timothy.

752
00:50:19,480 –> 00:50:27,160
And that from a child thou hast
known the Holy Scriptures which

753
00:50:27,160 –> 00:50:33,400
are able to make thee wise unto
salvation through faith which is

754
00:50:33,400 –> 00:50:35,880
in Christ Jesus.
Verse 16.

755
00:50:36,400 –> 00:50:42,760
All Scripture is given by
inspiration of God, and is

756
00:50:42,760 –> 00:50:48,720
profitable for doctrine, for
reproof, for correction, for

757
00:50:48,720 –> 00:50:53,440
instruction and righteousness,
that the man of God may be

758
00:50:53,680 –> 00:51:00,320
perfect, thoroughly furnished
unto all good works.

759
00:51:02,120 –> 00:51:06,560
Now we believe certain
conclusions fall out of those

760
00:51:06,560 –> 00:51:10,200
verses.
Firstly, from those very verses

761
00:51:10,200 –> 00:51:14,320
that Paul has just 10 here,
contrary to the Catholic notion,

762
00:51:14,320 –> 00:51:17,360
ladies and gentlemen, that the
Bible does not have any

763
00:51:17,360 –> 00:51:21,280
authority on its own merits
apart from the church.

764
00:51:21,640 –> 00:51:27,920
Here is scripture of itself
claiming unlimited authority.

765
00:51:29,040 –> 00:51:32,600
All Scripture is given by
inspiration of God.

766
00:51:33,240 –> 00:51:36,200
That’s a biblical claim.
We didn’t need the Catholic

767
00:51:36,200 –> 00:51:40,400
Church to tell us that it is
furthermore profitable for

768
00:51:40,400 –> 00:51:47,280
doctrine, for reproof, for
correction, for instruction in

769
00:51:47,280 –> 00:51:50,360
righteousness.
For what objective?

770
00:51:51,320 –> 00:51:58,640
How pervading is this objective
that the man of God may be

771
00:51:59,200 –> 00:52:02,680
generally instructed?
No, they might be helped.

772
00:52:03,360 –> 00:52:07,240
No, it’s not that general.
Rather verse 17 that the man of

773
00:52:07,240 –> 00:52:15,160
God may be perfect thoroughly,
not partially, not in part, but

774
00:52:15,840 –> 00:52:21,160
thoroughly furnished unto not
some good works, not most good

775
00:52:21,160 –> 00:52:28,640
works unto all good works.
The apostle Paul, you see,

776
00:52:29,000 –> 00:52:34,840
couldn’t have been more
exclusive in terms of where he

777
00:52:34,840 –> 00:52:39,480
placed divine authority.
He couldn’t have attributed to

778
00:52:39,480 –> 00:52:42,960
the Scriptures to the written
record apart from the oral.

779
00:52:43,440 –> 00:52:47,400
He could not have attributed to
the written record a more

780
00:52:47,400 –> 00:52:52,520
encompassing, a more
encompassing kind of authority

781
00:52:52,840 –> 00:52:54,880
than to express it the way he
does.

782
00:52:54,880 –> 00:53:00,840
In verse 17 we noticed those
words perfect, which means fully

783
00:53:00,840 –> 00:53:07,360
mature in the Greek, thoroughly
furnished all good works.

784
00:53:07,840 –> 00:53:11,320
In other words, the scriptures
are rather self-sufficient.

785
00:53:12,960 –> 00:53:17,480
The scriptures are
self-sufficient if the

786
00:53:17,480 –> 00:53:24,800
scriptures says Paul can make us
wise unto salvation, verse 15,

787
00:53:25,240 –> 00:53:28,920
through faith which is in Christ
Jesus, if they are given by

788
00:53:28,920 –> 00:53:33,200
inspiration of God for doctrine
and correction, and so on.

789
00:53:33,680 –> 00:53:39,840
If by them thereby men can
become perfect as a Christian,

790
00:53:40,000 –> 00:53:44,320
or fully mature, if by
application to those scriptures

791
00:53:44,320 –> 00:53:50,640
he can be thoroughly furnished
onto all good works, then it’s

792
00:53:50,640 –> 00:53:54,400
no contradiction or straining of
the Apostles language to say

793
00:53:54,400 –> 00:53:57,600
that Paul believed this book is
self-sufficient.

794
00:53:58,400 –> 00:54:02,480
Contained within its pages are
all that a professing Christian

795
00:54:02,640 –> 00:54:08,640
could need or should need to
become a fully mature, fully

796
00:54:08,640 –> 00:54:13,320
mature Christian, thoroughly
furnished unto all good works.

797
00:54:15,080 –> 00:54:20,200
Contrary, as we’ve said, to
O’Brien’s assertion that we

798
00:54:20,200 –> 00:54:23,600
would not know the Bible to be
inspired unless the Catholic

799
00:54:23,600 –> 00:54:27,480
Church as its mother had told
us, though, here is Bible.

800
00:54:27,480 –> 00:54:31,760
Here is the Bible on its own
merit, explicitly claiming

801
00:54:31,760 –> 00:54:35,720
inspiration for itself.
And by the way, the word

802
00:54:35,720 –> 00:54:38,920
inspiration is the most
important word there in the

803
00:54:38,920 –> 00:54:40,760
original.
If you have a Bible concordance,

804
00:54:40,760 –> 00:54:43,200
you can check this.
In the original, the word

805
00:54:43,280 –> 00:54:49,600
inspiration is the Greek term
Theo, meaning God, Theo, new

806
00:54:49,600 –> 00:54:51,760
Toth, from which we get the word
pneumatic.

807
00:54:52,000 –> 00:54:57,520
New Toth means breed the Greek
term one word Theo newtok means

808
00:54:57,520 –> 00:55:03,160
God breathed or God spirited and
so it would read in the original

809
00:55:03,160 –> 00:55:07,240
to a Greek the original audience
for most of these scriptures,

810
00:55:07,800 –> 00:55:13,840
all scripture is God spirited or
God breathed.

811
00:55:14,920 –> 00:55:17,560
You don’t use a term like that,
ladies and gentlemen, to

812
00:55:17,560 –> 00:55:22,320
describe a dead letter.
If all Scripture, the written

813
00:55:22,320 –> 00:55:24,240
record, and that’s what
Scripture means, it means the

814
00:55:24,240 –> 00:55:31,240
writings in the Greek, all the
writings are God read or God

815
00:55:31,760 –> 00:55:36,720
spirited, then these words are
not dead words, ladies and

816
00:55:36,720 –> 00:55:38,000
gentlemen.
They are dynamic.

817
00:55:38,520 –> 00:55:42,560
They are obviously viewed by the
Apostle Paul as having a dynamic

818
00:55:42,560 –> 00:55:49,280
force intrinsic to themselves
apart from any other authority

819
00:55:49,280 –> 00:55:52,160
or any other voice or any other
community.

820
00:55:53,120 –> 00:55:57,720
That’s why, and that’s the only
reason why they can make a

821
00:55:57,760 –> 00:56:02,440
Christian perfect or mature.
That’s why they can make you

822
00:56:02,800 –> 00:56:07,560
thoroughly furnished onto all
good works because and only

823
00:56:07,560 –> 00:56:11,440
because that the apostle tells
us by divine revelation.

824
00:56:11,800 –> 00:56:14,760
They are God breathed, they are
God spirited.

825
00:56:14,800 –> 00:56:19,120
They are not dead.
These words are viewed by Paul

826
00:56:19,120 –> 00:56:22,840
as being a kind of see, the
master used similar language in

827
00:56:22,840 –> 00:56:27,400
the parable of the Thor, a seed
which has a dormant power or

828
00:56:27,400 –> 00:56:32,840
authority, and when in a man’s
mind or a woman’s heart, that

829
00:56:32,840 –> 00:56:37,440
power can be released and is a
dynamic moving force.

830
00:56:38,840 –> 00:56:42,240
We’ll perhaps just see that this
is not just viewed that way by

831
00:56:42,240 –> 00:56:45,800
the apostle Paul.
Let’s look at Peter, so

832
00:56:45,800 –> 00:56:47,480
pertinent to the Catholic
community.

833
00:56:48,560 –> 00:56:52,640
Here’s an interesting passage,
especially coming as it does

834
00:56:52,800 –> 00:56:56,160
from Peter.
Let me elucidate what I mean by

835
00:56:56,160 –> 00:57:00,480
that.
The Apostle Peter is viewed by

836
00:57:00,480 –> 00:57:06,400
the Catholic Church as the first
of a long line of popes.

837
00:57:07,520 –> 00:57:10,720
It is believed that all popes
today, or excuse me, the Pope

838
00:57:10,720 –> 00:57:15,160
today, and popes in the past can
trace their line or their

839
00:57:15,160 –> 00:57:17,640
lineage right back to the
Apostle Peter.

840
00:57:17,640 –> 00:57:20,600
They are in a certain sense
viewed as his successors.

841
00:57:22,440 –> 00:57:28,680
Therefore, Peter would be viewed
as a Pope by model and example

842
00:57:28,680 –> 00:57:33,400
for all other popes, and it
would be held that he viewed his

843
00:57:33,400 –> 00:57:37,120
personal authority as a Pope,
the first Pope, in much the same

844
00:57:37,120 –> 00:57:40,200
way as of course Pope’s would
define or express their

845
00:57:40,360 –> 00:57:44,320
authority today.
But notice what first the Peter

846
00:57:44,320 –> 00:57:46,480
said written from Peter’s own
hand.

847
00:57:46,960 –> 00:57:52,920
Peter says in first of Peter
chapter one verse 23, he says

848
00:57:52,920 –> 00:58:00,080
this being born again, not of
corruptible speed, but of

849
00:58:00,120 –> 00:58:09,360
incorruptible by the word of
God, which liveth and abideth

850
00:58:09,680 –> 00:58:14,880
forever.
Verse 25 Peter Wright but the

851
00:58:14,880 –> 00:58:20,160
word of the Lord endureth
forever.

852
00:58:20,160 –> 00:58:24,040
Now we might ask what word is
Peter talking about?

853
00:58:24,720 –> 00:58:29,240
How restricted is this term the
word of God means?

854
00:58:29,240 –> 00:58:31,840
Does it embrace tradition for
example, or some other form of

855
00:58:31,840 –> 00:58:34,040
divine revelation apart from the
Bible?

856
00:58:34,520 –> 00:58:38,880
What the Peter said, verse 25
But the word of the Lord

857
00:58:38,880 –> 00:58:47,240
endureth forever, and this is
the word which by the gospel is

858
00:58:47,240 –> 00:58:51,880
preached unto you.
It was something the apostle and

859
00:58:51,880 –> 00:58:56,120
the other apostles had preached
and were preaching.

860
00:58:57,240 –> 00:59:01,040
It was something that was
defined as the gospel.

861
00:59:01,840 –> 00:59:05,720
It was something that was
revealed in New Testament time.

862
00:59:07,000 –> 00:59:09,760
Now make that a little more
clear.

863
00:59:10,440 –> 00:59:16,680
In Peter’s second Epistle,
chapter 3, he refers to the word

864
00:59:16,680 –> 00:59:25,200
again.
Second Peter, chapter 3, he says

865
00:59:25,200 –> 00:59:29,800
in verses one and two.
This second epistle, beloved, I

866
00:59:29,800 –> 00:59:35,960
now write unto you in both which
I stir up your pure mind by way

867
00:59:35,960 –> 00:59:41,840
of remembrance, that He may be
mindful of the word which were

868
00:59:41,840 –> 00:59:47,160
spoken before the Holy Prophet
and the commandment of us, the

869
00:59:47,160 –> 00:59:50,600
apostles of the Lord and Savior.
What words are they?

870
00:59:50,800 –> 00:59:55,760
Is he referring to the words
which were spoken before by the

871
00:59:55,760 –> 00:59:58,400
holy prophets?
And He is stirring up their

872
00:59:58,400 –> 01:00:02,440
remembrance of these things.
So the word preached is

873
01:00:02,440 –> 01:00:05,000
something that they had already
been given prior to.

874
01:00:05,000 –> 01:00:09,160
This wasn’t something that would
be after New Testament times,

875
01:00:09,440 –> 01:00:12,200
but something that had already
been given to them in the past.

876
01:00:12,200 –> 01:00:14,520
And He is stirring up the
remembrance of them.

877
01:00:15,320 –> 01:00:19,600
That’s the word he’s referring
to, and he said that you can be

878
01:00:19,600 –> 01:00:26,640
born again by this word, which
he describes as a seed which

879
01:00:26,680 –> 01:00:32,200
liveth and abideth forever.
You see, because he says that

880
01:00:32,200 –> 01:00:36,560
lives and abides forever, he
clearly did not view the Bible

881
01:00:36,720 –> 01:00:38,480
as something that was a dead
letter.

882
01:00:38,960 –> 01:00:42,560
He viewed it rather as something
that was a dynamic force,

883
01:00:43,040 –> 01:00:48,680
something living and powerful.
So if we just look at some more

884
01:00:48,680 –> 01:00:53,120
of those points by O’Brien and
some of the other writers, we

885
01:00:53,120 –> 01:00:58,720
see that what Peter says, what
Paul says about the Bible and

886
01:00:58,720 –> 01:01:02,320
its authority is really quite
contradictory to a number of

887
01:01:02,320 –> 01:01:07,000
these Catholic statements.
The Bible does claim on its own

888
01:01:07,000 –> 01:01:11,080
accord to be inspired.
The Bible does claim, the

889
01:01:11,080 –> 01:01:15,080
apostles claim that the word,
the written word is

890
01:01:15,080 –> 01:01:20,360
self-sufficient, that it is
powerful, dynamic, like a seed,

891
01:01:20,360 –> 01:01:24,560
that it lives in a bind and can
make a man fully mature,

892
01:01:24,840 –> 01:01:27,160
thoroughly furnished onto all
good works.

893
01:01:28,720 –> 01:01:31,600
You see the scriptures if you
look at them carefully ladies

894
01:01:31,600 –> 01:01:36,200
and gentlemen, never teach the
self-sufficiency of the church,

895
01:01:37,240 –> 01:01:39,520
that is the people and its
administrative body.

896
01:01:40,200 –> 01:01:43,000
There is not a statement
anywhere in the New Testament

897
01:01:43,400 –> 01:01:47,360
that suggests that the Church
itself is self-sufficient.

898
01:01:48,320 –> 01:01:52,880
Rather, the New Testament
writers stress the unrivaled

899
01:01:52,880 –> 01:01:56,560
authority and the supreme value
of the written Scriptures.

900
01:01:57,560 –> 01:02:00,440
Indirectly, the supreme
importance of the written

901
01:02:00,440 –> 01:02:05,080
scripture is demonstrated in the
teaching form that is used by

902
01:02:05,080 –> 01:02:09,240
the Apostle Jesus despite his
divine authority.

903
01:02:09,480 –> 01:02:13,600
Ladies and gentlemen, although
introducing a new covenant,

904
01:02:14,480 –> 01:02:18,880
constantly establish his
teaching by reference to the

905
01:02:18,880 –> 01:02:22,520
previous record of Scripture.
Jesus did this constantly.

906
01:02:23,280 –> 01:02:26,160
Constantly.
The Gospels show Jesus

907
01:02:26,160 –> 01:02:28,920
introducing his teaching
although it was a new covenant

908
01:02:29,120 –> 01:02:34,160
by phrases like it is written,
thus it becometh the scriptures,

909
01:02:34,760 –> 01:02:36,840
thus it is fulfilling the
scriptures.

910
01:02:37,400 –> 01:02:42,000
The Scriptures say.
And of course the Lord, being

911
01:02:42,000 –> 01:02:45,160
the Master himself, could have
circumvented that.

912
01:02:45,920 –> 01:02:49,040
He didn’t need to introduce his
new covenant, his new teaching,

913
01:02:49,040 –> 01:02:53,600
in a certain sense that way.
But he did because the apostles

914
01:02:53,600 –> 01:02:57,440
also did it and because it was
the scriptural thing to do.

915
01:02:57,880 –> 01:03:01,520
Whatever Jesus taught her said
was viewed in the context of

916
01:03:01,520 –> 01:03:04,160
previous divine written
revelation.

917
01:03:04,960 –> 01:03:08,320
And we’ll see that whatever the
apostles preached and said to

918
01:03:08,320 –> 01:03:10,480
their listeners, although they
were presenting the new

919
01:03:10,480 –> 01:03:15,040
covenant, was always in the
context and with the rider that

920
01:03:15,040 –> 01:03:19,120
it was found in previous divine
written revelation.

921
01:03:20,840 –> 01:03:25,640
So that Jesus pinpointed his
criticism of a group of people

922
01:03:25,640 –> 01:03:32,440
in his own day who the Jews, the
rabbi trusted in tradition, they

923
01:03:32,440 –> 01:03:36,880
trusted in an oral tradition
that they believed supplemented

924
01:03:36,880 –> 01:03:40,160
as rabbis, the written record
thought wasn’t contradictory.

925
01:03:40,960 –> 01:03:46,120
And to that Jesus said this,
Mark 7, verses 6 to 9.

926
01:03:46,520 –> 01:03:49,560
And I’m going to quote the new
Catholic Bible, the new American

927
01:03:49,560 –> 01:03:55,800
Catholic Bible.
Jesus says this in Mark 7 verse

928
01:03:55,800 –> 01:04:05,040
6 to 9, speaking to his fellow
Jews who trusted on the

929
01:04:05,040 –> 01:04:08,480
authority of tradition that
supposedly supplemented

930
01:04:08,480 –> 01:04:13,320
scripture.
He says how accurately Isaiah

931
01:04:13,320 –> 01:04:17,240
prophesied about you hypocrites
when he wrote this.

932
01:04:17,240 –> 01:04:21,240
People pays lip service, but
their heart is far from me

933
01:04:21,880 –> 01:04:26,200
because they teach as dogmas
mere human precepts.

934
01:04:27,000 –> 01:04:31,000
Jesus continues.
You disregard God’s commandments

935
01:04:31,040 –> 01:04:34,760
and cling to what is human
tradition.

936
01:04:35,440 –> 01:04:39,400
He went on to say.
You have made a fine art of

937
01:04:39,400 –> 01:04:44,400
setting aside God’s commandments
in the interests of keeping your

938
01:04:44,520 –> 01:04:48,080
tradition.
Ladies and gentlemen, if you

939
01:04:48,080 –> 01:04:51,200
look up the word tradition in a
Bible concordance, which is like

940
01:04:51,200 –> 01:04:54,480
a Bible dictionary, you know
what you’ll discover about Jesus

941
01:04:54,480 –> 01:04:59,080
use of the word tradition.
Every single reference to the

942
01:04:59,080 –> 01:05:04,280
word tradition by Jesus Christ
is in a disparaging sense, every

943
01:05:04,280 –> 01:05:09,160
single one.
And the majority of references

944
01:05:09,160 –> 01:05:13,840
in the New Testament outside of
the Gospels 2 tradition are also

945
01:05:13,840 –> 01:05:17,280
in a disparaging context.
There are only two in the New

946
01:05:17,280 –> 01:05:21,960
Testament that use tradition in
the sense of the Apostolic

947
01:05:21,960 –> 01:05:24,720
sense.
That is tradition referring to

948
01:05:24,720 –> 01:05:27,600
what Peter says, what has
already been delivered by the

949
01:05:27,600 –> 01:05:30,720
apostles and confirmed to them
in writing.

950
01:05:31,560 –> 01:05:34,720
All other references to
tradition are disparaging, and

951
01:05:34,760 –> 01:05:38,560
all the references to tradition
by Jesus himself are purely

952
01:05:38,600 –> 01:05:40,800
disparaging.
And of course, what he had in

953
01:05:40,800 –> 01:05:44,600
mind were the people around him
who held to this supposedly

954
01:05:44,760 –> 01:05:48,960
supplementary authority.
We believe the example of Jesus

955
01:05:49,160 –> 01:05:51,720
is pertinent and the example of
the apostle.

956
01:05:52,680 –> 01:05:56,440
We’d like to conclude by turning
to the Bible passage we had read

957
01:05:56,440 –> 01:05:58,760
this evening.
This, we believe, is an

958
01:05:58,760 –> 01:06:01,600
appropriate summary of our
appeal.

959
01:06:02,480 –> 01:06:04,080
This is found in the book of the
Acts.

960
01:06:04,080 –> 01:06:07,600
We believe it’s a very important
Bible passage to clearly think

961
01:06:07,600 –> 01:06:22,520
about Acts chapter 17 before we
just look at the pertinent

962
01:06:22,520 –> 01:06:24,960
section.
We believe it’s pertinent to the

963
01:06:24,960 –> 01:06:27,360
Catholic cause and to the
Catholic conviction.

964
01:06:27,840 –> 01:06:30,800
Can we just preface why we’re
looking at this passage in Acts

965
01:06:30,800 –> 01:06:35,240
17 as a summary?
The reason why we’re looking at

966
01:06:35,240 –> 01:06:37,960
this passage, ladies and
gentlemen, is as follows.

967
01:06:39,360 –> 01:06:43,200
The Catholic community views
oral tradition or the living

968
01:06:43,200 –> 01:06:47,960
voice as being something which,
although it doesn’t contradict

969
01:06:48,240 –> 01:06:52,320
supplement, presides over,
interprets as the living voice

970
01:06:52,800 –> 01:06:56,800
the written message.
They believe that on all scores,

971
01:06:56,800 –> 01:07:01,480
therefore, the living voice is
more dynamic and is in a certain

972
01:07:01,480 –> 01:07:05,400
sense the greater authority.
It embraces Scripture in that

973
01:07:05,400 –> 01:07:08,640
sense.
It is believed that because the

974
01:07:08,640 –> 01:07:12,400
Magisterium of the Catholic
Church, the officiating body, is

975
01:07:12,400 –> 01:07:16,720
guided by the Holy Spirit and
has such a living, dynamic

976
01:07:16,840 –> 01:07:22,240
present voice that is guiding
them, then you should trust and

977
01:07:22,240 –> 01:07:25,680
put your faith in what they say,
even though certain doctrines

978
01:07:25,680 –> 01:07:27,040
may not be directly in the
Bible.

979
01:07:28,000 –> 01:07:32,280
Now it would be helpful to test
this in a scriptural sense, and

980
01:07:32,280 –> 01:07:36,240
we can do this with Acts 17.
If we could find an example,

981
01:07:36,240 –> 01:07:40,080
ladies and gentlemen, in the New
Testament of a case something

982
01:07:40,080 –> 01:07:43,360
like this, where we have an
apostle, let’s say someone like

983
01:07:43,360 –> 01:07:47,320
Paul, who is speaking to an
audience not converted.

984
01:07:48,400 –> 01:07:51,840
Here is Paul and all would agree
he was guided by the Holy Spirit

985
01:07:51,960 –> 01:07:55,680
and claims such.
If we had a case of someone like

986
01:07:55,680 –> 01:08:00,080
Paul speaking obviously by
inspiration of the Holy Spirit

987
01:08:00,680 –> 01:08:08,040
and having his oral message
tested, checked, weighed up and

988
01:08:08,040 –> 01:08:10,120
weighed against the written
message.

989
01:08:11,120 –> 01:08:15,920
If we had an example like that,
we would find something that

990
01:08:15,920 –> 01:08:19,520
we’re looking for to test the
Catholic claim quite succinctly.

991
01:08:20,560 –> 01:08:26,520
Let’s look at Acts 17.
Acts 17, verse one brings Paul

992
01:08:26,520 –> 01:08:30,279
into Amphipolis in Apollonia may
come to Thessalonica, we’re told

993
01:08:30,560 –> 01:08:35,200
to a synagogue of the Jews.
Verse 2 Paul as his manner was

994
01:08:35,200 –> 01:08:38,920
went in unto them, and for three
Sabbath he reasoned with them

995
01:08:38,960 –> 01:08:43,200
out of the Scriptures opening
and alleging that Christ must

996
01:08:43,200 –> 01:08:46,240
need have suffered.
Notice that phrase in verse two,

997
01:08:46,840 –> 01:08:52,520
He reasoned with them out of the
scriptures.

998
01:08:52,840 –> 01:09:00,760
Verse two, as his manner was
Paul’s posture in talking to non

999
01:09:00,760 –> 01:09:04,880
Christian, although they were
Jews and knew the Bible was to

1000
01:09:04,880 –> 01:09:10,080
make his Apostolic appeal by a
reasoning from the written

1001
01:09:10,080 –> 01:09:12,880
message.
Despite his Apostolic authority,

1002
01:09:13,479 –> 01:09:17,520
despite his inspired Holy Spirit
guidance, he stuck to the

1003
01:09:17,520 –> 01:09:21,319
scriptures.
Verse three he opened and he had

1004
01:09:21,319 –> 01:09:24,240
LED from those scriptures of
always preaching the new

1005
01:09:24,240 –> 01:09:26,479
covenant and of always preaching
Christ.

1006
01:09:26,479 –> 01:09:27,720
He does it from the Old
Testament.

1007
01:09:28,240 –> 01:09:31,960
He does it from previously
divine written revelation.

1008
01:09:32,680 –> 01:09:37,279
Then the story continues, he
moves on from this place to

1009
01:09:37,279 –> 01:09:40,520
another, and we read, if we just
slip down to verse 10.

1010
01:09:41,200 –> 01:09:44,600
And the brethren immediately
sent Paul and Silas by night

1011
01:09:44,600 –> 01:09:48,520
unto Berea little town, who
coming thither went into the

1012
01:09:48,520 –> 01:09:53,040
synagogue of the Jews.
These were more noble.

1013
01:09:54,320 –> 01:09:59,200
These were more noble, these
Jews in the synagogue than those

1014
01:09:59,200 –> 01:10:01,040
in Thessalonica.
How so?

1015
01:10:01,720 –> 01:10:09,600
In that they received the word
with all readiness of mind and

1016
01:10:09,720 –> 01:10:17,080
search the scriptures daily,
whether whether those things

1017
01:10:17,080 –> 01:10:21,560
were sold.
Who’s being tested, Paul?

1018
01:10:22,400 –> 01:10:24,360
Where is he preaching?
In the synagogue?

1019
01:10:24,880 –> 01:10:26,840
To whom is he preaching?
The Jews?

1020
01:10:27,920 –> 01:10:30,120
And why are these people
commended?

1021
01:10:30,840 –> 01:10:35,160
They are commended because they
received Paul’s word with all

1022
01:10:35,160 –> 01:10:41,080
readiness of mind and searched
the scriptures daily, whether

1023
01:10:41,440 –> 01:10:46,400
those things were so, in other
words, they went home or they

1024
01:10:46,400 –> 01:10:50,360
went to the synagogue table,
took their scriptures in hand

1025
01:10:50,600 –> 01:10:57,360
and tested whether the oral
message, the inspired oral

1026
01:10:57,360 –> 01:11:03,400
living message, measured up to
the previous divine revelation

1027
01:11:03,400 –> 01:11:05,520
in their scripture.
These were Jews.

1028
01:11:05,920 –> 01:11:07,000
They didn’t have the New
Testament.

1029
01:11:07,000 –> 01:11:10,040
They didn’t accept it.
They took their Old Testament

1030
01:11:10,040 –> 01:11:13,920
scriptures there in the
synagogue and daily searched to

1031
01:11:13,920 –> 01:11:19,920
see whether this man inspired,
authoritative as he was, was

1032
01:11:19,920 –> 01:11:24,480
saying something that squared
with the written message.

1033
01:11:25,360 –> 01:11:28,120
The written message, ladies and
gentlemen, was the measuring

1034
01:11:28,200 –> 01:11:31,560
thing.
It was the divine standard of

1035
01:11:31,560 –> 01:11:36,040
correctness or incorrectness.
And here the scriptures do not

1036
01:11:36,040 –> 01:11:38,520
look at the Bereans as insulting
Paul.

1037
01:11:39,320 –> 01:11:43,280
They’re not viewed as being
overly sceptical or being rather

1038
01:11:43,280 –> 01:11:48,120
hard nosed.
It says they were more noble

1039
01:11:48,680 –> 01:11:52,760
than those of Thespoonica in
that they did this, they

1040
01:11:52,760 –> 01:11:55,440
received the Word with all
readiness, and they searched the

1041
01:11:55,440 –> 01:11:59,240
Scriptures daily.
Ladies and gentlemen, we have

1042
01:11:59,240 –> 01:12:04,240
here before us a supreme and
startling example that when the

1043
01:12:04,240 –> 01:12:08,360
living voice was present, guided
by the Holy Spirit, people who

1044
01:12:08,360 –> 01:12:12,480
checked their Bibles, the
written message to test whether

1045
01:12:12,680 –> 01:12:16,840
the oral message was correct
were commended for it as being

1046
01:12:16,840 –> 01:12:20,120
noble.
We have some handouts now that

1047
01:12:20,120 –> 01:12:24,040
our lecture is included, not the
book, but some supplementary

1048
01:12:24,040 –> 01:12:26,000
pages.
We’re going to give those to you

1049
01:12:26,000 –> 01:12:28,800
now, and we’re just going to
comment on why we’re giving them

1050
01:12:28,800 –> 01:12:30,960
to you, and we’ll close and ask
for questions.

1051
01:12:31,480 –> 01:12:33,800
Could we have our stewards just
give out these pages?

1052
01:12:33,920 –> 01:12:38,800
It wasn’t the purpose of our
address this evening to deal in

1053
01:12:38,800 –> 01:12:42,680
detail with the Bible teaching
of the soul and what it means.

1054
01:12:43,880 –> 01:12:48,440
But on these pages we have tried
to categorize for you a number

1055
01:12:48,440 –> 01:12:53,240
of very important Bible passages
showing we believe quite clearly

1056
01:12:53,360 –> 01:12:56,000
that the doctrine of the
immortal soul as understood by

1057
01:12:56,000 –> 01:12:57,840
the Catholic Church is quite an
error.

1058
01:12:58,320 –> 01:13:02,000
It does not represent nor
supplement the biblical

1059
01:13:02,000 –> 01:13:04,480
revelation.
Instead, it contradicts it.

1060
01:13:05,840 –> 01:13:08,240
When you look at the Bible’s
teaching, you find it.

1061
01:13:08,240 –> 01:13:10,360
But we just browse the few pages
we have.

1062
01:13:10,640 –> 01:13:15,840
The first page shows you that
the word soul is used of the

1063
01:13:15,840 –> 01:13:20,960
creation of man in Genesis 2,
but it’s also used to describe

1064
01:13:20,960 –> 01:13:25,520
the animals, as a Catholic
pamphlet admits down at the

1065
01:13:25,520 –> 01:13:28,560
bottom of the first page.
Look at how the word soul is

1066
01:13:28,560 –> 01:13:32,240
used in your Bible.
Rather than describing something

1067
01:13:32,240 –> 01:13:37,360
immortal, intangible, or a spark
from God, it’s used to describe

1068
01:13:37,360 –> 01:13:40,760
things that can be strangled.
Souls are described as having

1069
01:13:40,760 –> 01:13:43,080
blood.
Souls are described as having

1070
01:13:43,080 –> 01:13:46,520
been bought or sold, touched or
eaten in the Bible.

1071
01:13:47,040 –> 01:13:50,760
Second page.
Therefore we show you a number

1072
01:13:50,760 –> 01:13:55,200
of Bible passages where the soul
is described as perishing, a

1073
01:13:55,200 –> 01:13:59,160
soul is described as being able
to be put to the sword and of

1074
01:13:59,160 –> 01:14:03,800
done a soul is used and it is
described rather as being

1075
01:14:03,800 –> 01:14:07,720
unconscious in the death state
of being like asleep or

1076
01:14:07,720 –> 01:14:11,160
oblivion.
There are some rather startling

1077
01:14:11,160 –> 01:14:14,680
admissions listed on the second
page from various

1078
01:14:14,680 –> 01:14:18,200
representations of the Christian
community apart from Catholics

1079
01:14:18,640 –> 01:14:22,680
admitting that the word soul
really is not described as being

1080
01:14:22,680 –> 01:14:28,920
immortal in the Bible.
The third page, Some historical

1081
01:14:28,920 –> 01:14:34,320
references from Encyclopedia
Herodotus, the old Greek

1082
01:14:34,320 –> 01:14:38,160
historian who wrote well before
the time of Christ, tells us the

1083
01:14:38,160 –> 01:14:42,720
concept of the immortal soul
came from Egypt, given in his

1084
01:14:42,720 –> 01:14:44,560
rise and fall of the Roman
Empire.

1085
01:14:45,680 –> 01:14:49,920
Candidly knows as an objective
historian, and by the way he was

1086
01:14:49,920 –> 01:14:53,880
an atheist, that the immortality
of the soul is omitted in the

1087
01:14:53,880 –> 01:14:57,040
Law of Moses.
Mosheim, one of the oldest

1088
01:14:57,040 –> 01:15:01,880
ecclesiastical historian,
affirms that it was from Plato

1089
01:15:02,240 –> 01:15:05,520
that the immortal soul concept
crept into Christian

1090
01:15:05,520 –> 01:15:09,320
communities.
Justin Martyr, viewed as one of

1091
01:15:09,320 –> 01:15:13,920
the early church fathered by the
Catholic Church, says in the

1092
01:15:13,920 –> 01:15:18,680
middle of that quote that the
concept of the soul as leaving

1093
01:15:18,680 –> 01:15:22,280
the body and going to heaven
when a man dies was something

1094
01:15:22,280 –> 01:15:25,720
that had cracked in from outside
of the true Christian community.

1095
01:15:26,800 –> 01:15:31,080
The 4th page.
A quotation at the top from

1096
01:15:31,080 –> 01:15:36,760
Encyclopedia Britannica showing
that Augustine, again regarded

1097
01:15:36,760 –> 01:15:40,200
as one of the early fathers of
the Catholic Church, borrowed

1098
01:15:40,200 –> 01:15:45,800
from Plato in his concept and
his definition of the immortal

1099
01:15:45,800 –> 01:15:49,480
soul.
Collier’s Encyclopedia backed

1100
01:15:49,480 –> 01:15:52,960
that up.
The American Encyclopedia backs

1101
01:15:52,960 –> 01:15:57,800
that up, that Augustine borrowed
from Plato in his concept of the

1102
01:15:57,800 –> 01:16:00,200
soul.
Just notice the bottom of page

1103
01:16:00,200 –> 01:16:07,080
4, volume to 1971 and 79 rather
that contribution.

1104
01:16:07,080 –> 01:16:11,120
RK Ryan is a Catholic.
He signs his name at the bottom

1105
01:16:11,120 –> 01:16:15,600
of the encyclopedia entry.
A Catholic writer in that

1106
01:16:15,600 –> 01:16:20,360
encyclopedia says this.
The sole, according to the view

1107
01:16:20,360 –> 01:16:23,320
of Augustine, is a true
substance and not a mere

1108
01:16:23,320 –> 01:16:27,600
accidental reality.
For its immortality, Augustine

1109
01:16:27,600 –> 01:16:31,320
advances various proofs which
derive from Plato.

1110
01:16:31,640 –> 01:16:35,120
That’s a Catholic writer.
We hope that you will look at

1111
01:16:35,120 –> 01:16:39,480
the last page.
It shows what the Bible means by

1112
01:16:39,480 –> 01:16:41,520
the word soul in the New
Testament.

1113
01:16:42,520 –> 01:16:45,800
In first Two Corinthians 15, the
apostle Paul sets up a

1114
01:16:45,800 –> 01:16:53,560
comparison and Speaking of what
happens to a body when it dies

1115
01:16:54,040 –> 01:16:56,720
and what it’s like when it’s
resurrected by Christ.

1116
01:16:57,000 –> 01:17:03,160
He says that a body is sown
first in verse 40 as an earthy

1117
01:17:03,160 –> 01:17:05,000
body and then raised to the
heavenly.

1118
01:17:05,640 –> 01:17:09,040
A body when it dies is subject
to decay, but then it will be

1119
01:17:09,040 –> 01:17:12,320
raised to be incorruptible.
So it’s not incorruptible to

1120
01:17:12,320 –> 01:17:15,400
start with.
A body is ignoble to start with

1121
01:17:15,400 –> 01:17:18,160
and then glory.
A body, he says is sown in

1122
01:17:18,160 –> 01:17:19,880
weakness, but it’s raised in
strength.

1123
01:17:19,880 –> 01:17:24,440
When Christ returns a body he
says is natural, it’ll be raised

1124
01:17:24,440 –> 01:17:29,080
spiritual later.
A body he says is sown.

1125
01:17:29,480 –> 01:17:32,520
A living soul.
See what the Bible means by

1126
01:17:32,800 –> 01:17:35,640
soul?
It’s equivalent with a natural

1127
01:17:35,640 –> 01:17:38,160
body.
It’s equated with something

1128
01:17:38,160 –> 01:17:42,520
that’s weak to the Bible.
A living soul is equated with

1129
01:17:42,520 –> 01:17:46,120
something that’s ignoble,
something subject to decay, and

1130
01:17:46,120 –> 01:17:49,360
below that something that is of
the earth, Something he

1131
01:17:49,360 –> 01:17:51,320
describes as being a flesh and
blood.

1132
01:17:52,360 –> 01:17:55,440
A living soul, equated in his
comparison with things that are

1133
01:17:55,440 –> 01:17:58,640
asleep when they die, with
something that is corruptible

1134
01:17:58,680 –> 01:18:02,400
and mortal.
And he says that only in the

1135
01:18:02,400 –> 01:18:07,040
future, at the resurrection,
only then will a living soul,

1136
01:18:07,480 –> 01:18:10,560
something ignoble, something
weak, something that’s a natural

1137
01:18:10,560 –> 01:18:14,200
body, only then will it be
clothed with immortality.

1138
01:18:14,920 –> 01:18:18,080
Our conclusion, ladies and
gentlemen, is on such basic

1139
01:18:18,080 –> 01:18:21,800
foundations.
We sincerely believe the

1140
01:18:21,800 –> 01:18:24,680
community, half a community, is
a stray.

1141
01:18:25,080 –> 01:18:28,160
We make an appeal to you to
consider these and other

1142
01:18:28,160 –> 01:18:31,000
doctrines carefully in the light
of your Bible’s teaching.

1143
01:18:31,640 –> 01:18:37,880
Thank you.
Yes, we do.

1144
01:18:37,880 –> 01:18:41,320
Thank you, friends.
We thank Mr. Badger for bringing

1145
01:18:41,320 –> 01:18:44,920
us this message.
It’s finally important that we

1146
01:18:44,920 –> 01:18:48,760
look into this personally
because it is a matter of life

1147
01:18:48,760 –> 01:18:52,040
and death, and it’s your life or
your death we’re dealing with.

1148
01:18:53,040 –> 01:18:56,000
When it comes to such things as
traffic, we’re not permitted to

1149
01:18:56,000 –> 01:18:58,920
drive on whatever side of the
street we feel is right.

1150
01:18:59,520 –> 01:19:00,880
In England you drive on the
left.

1151
01:19:00,880 –> 01:19:04,320
Here you drive on the right.
When it comes to religion, we do

1152
01:19:04,320 –> 01:19:07,280
not have the right to make up
our own religion and decide that

1153
01:19:07,280 –> 01:19:10,960
what we believe is correct
because we’re sincere, because

1154
01:19:10,960 –> 01:19:13,520
it’s possible to be sincerely
wrong.

1155
01:19:14,560 –> 01:19:18,960
Mr. Badger tonight has shown us
how the foundations can be

1156
01:19:18,960 –> 01:19:22,240
incorrect, so we want you to
examine yours.

1157
01:19:22,240 –> 01:19:24,800
So right now, if you have a
question you want to address to

1158
01:19:24,800 –> 01:19:28,360
Mr. Badger, would you just
please raise your hand and he’ll

1159
01:19:28,360 –> 01:19:31,800
come forward and answer it for
you, something that he dealt

1160
01:19:31,800 –> 01:19:34,920
with in his lecture tonight.
Then you won’t have any

1161
01:19:34,920 –> 01:19:38,520
questions.
If you don’t want to ask a

1162
01:19:38,520 –> 01:19:40,200
question, don’t.
It’s all right.

1163
01:19:40,480 –> 01:19:43,480
He’ll be around afterwards to
answer them personally in case

1164
01:19:43,480 –> 01:19:47,040
you would like to talk to him.
The Christadelphians meet in

1165
01:19:47,040 –> 01:19:50,120
this place we have for some 38
years.

1166
01:19:50,480 –> 01:19:52,240
We’re going to be moving away
soon.

1167
01:19:52,680 –> 01:19:54,840
We want to invite you to come to
our new home.

1168
01:19:54,840 –> 01:19:56,920
We just purchased a building in
Tahunga.

1169
01:19:57,560 –> 01:20:01,120
But the truth is everywhere
because the Bible is everywhere.

1170
01:20:01,600 –> 01:20:05,400
And we would want you to follow
us if you’re interested in

1171
01:20:06,080 –> 01:20:08,280
continuing your search for
truth.

1172
01:20:08,920 –> 01:20:14,840
Because it’s sad but true that
many, many people are wrong.

1173
01:20:14,840 –> 01:20:17,440
In fact, the majority have
almost always been wrong.

1174
01:20:17,680 –> 01:20:19,640
At the time of the flood, there
were only eight people out of.

1175
01:20:20,320 –> 01:20:23,240
1,30,000,000 That we’re right.
Well, eight people out of

1176
01:20:23,520 –> 01:20:27,720
1,30,000,000 at the time of
Sodom and Gomorrah, there were

1177
01:20:27,720 –> 01:20:30,840
four people that left Sodom and
everybody else perished.

1178
01:20:31,040 –> 01:20:33,520
So the fact that we’re in the
majority doesn’t prove we’re

1179
01:20:33,520 –> 01:20:37,440
right.
So don’t worry about numbers.

1180
01:20:37,440 –> 01:20:39,480
Let’s concern ourselves with
facts.

1181
01:20:40,560 –> 01:20:41,880
And tonight we’ve looked at
some.

1182
01:20:41,880 –> 01:20:44,400
We hope you’ll read this book.
We’ll hope you’ll study with us.

1183
01:20:44,400 –> 01:20:47,800
We’d like to have your address.
One of the presidents of the

1184
01:20:47,800 –> 01:20:50,560
United States, which is now
dead, used to like to say, come,

1185
01:20:50,560 –> 01:20:53,760
let us reason together.
And we’re he.

1186
01:20:54,000 –> 01:20:55,720
He took that from the book of
Isaiah.

1187
01:20:56,120 –> 01:20:57,600
And that’s our appeal to you
tonight.

1188
01:20:58,160 –> 01:21:01,200
We do not want to argue.
We just want to sit down and

1189
01:21:01,200 –> 01:21:03,800
reason together.
Let’s take your Bible and our

1190
01:21:03,800 –> 01:21:07,040
Bible and sit down and open them
up and say, what does it say?

1191
01:21:08,000 –> 01:21:12,600
Are your foundations correct?
And if ours are incorrect and

1192
01:21:12,600 –> 01:21:14,880
yours are right, we want to
change too.

1193
01:21:15,440 –> 01:21:17,800
So let’s reason together to find
out what is true.

1194
01:21:18,680 –> 01:21:22,040
Paul told us when he wrote the
to the Galatians that even if an

1195
01:21:22,080 –> 01:21:25,360
Angel from heaven was to preach
another gospel, that he should

1196
01:21:25,360 –> 01:21:27,280
be accursed because he said if
there isn’t any other gospel,

1197
01:21:27,280 –> 01:21:30,120
there’s just one.
Now that’s one place we agree

1198
01:21:30,120 –> 01:21:32,080
with the Catholics.
They say that if you don’t

1199
01:21:32,080 –> 01:21:33,640
believe what’s right, you’ll
perish.

1200
01:21:33,640 –> 01:21:35,880
And we say the same thing.
Then we have to decide who’s

1201
01:21:35,880 –> 01:21:38,640
right.
The Bible is right.

1202
01:21:38,640 –> 01:21:40,800
And this doesn’t make a
difference what we say or anyone

1203
01:21:40,800 –> 01:21:45,000
else says.
But Mr. Badger pointed out, even

1204
01:21:45,200 –> 01:21:48,000
the Bereans checked up on Paul
to see if he was right.

1205
01:21:48,720 –> 01:21:50,880
So obviously we would want you
to check up on us.

1206
01:21:51,520 –> 01:21:54,200
We don’t say believe it because
the Christadelphians say it.

1207
01:21:54,480 –> 01:21:58,160
We say believe it because the
word of God said, But what does

1208
01:21:58,160 –> 01:22:00,400
it say?
You have a Bible, you have

1209
01:22:00,400 –> 01:22:03,200
common sense.
You do not have to have someone

1210
01:22:03,200 –> 01:22:05,720
tell you what it says.
So let’s open our Bibles

1211
01:22:05,720 –> 01:22:08,240
together and read it now.
Mr. Badger will be here

1212
01:22:08,240 –> 01:22:09,880
tomorrow.
He’s going to give three talks

1213
01:22:09,880 –> 01:22:14,680
tomorrow, one at 9:30 to our
Sunday School, one at 11:00, and

1214
01:22:14,680 –> 01:22:18,760
another talk at 793011 and 7:00
tomorrow.

1215
01:22:18,760 –> 01:22:20,560
You’re invited to any and all of
those.

1216
01:22:21,040 –> 01:22:24,240
You’re invited to come back to
this hall for the next few weeks

1217
01:22:24,240 –> 01:22:26,480
to meet with us.
If you’ll give us your address,

1218
01:22:26,480 –> 01:22:27,720
we’ll put you on our mailing
list.

1219
01:22:27,720 –> 01:22:31,000
We will send you pamphlets, a
magazine every month free of

1220
01:22:31,000 –> 01:22:32,760
charge.
We do not charge for anything we

1221
01:22:32,760 –> 01:22:35,280
have.
We just want to reason together

1222
01:22:35,280 –> 01:22:40,200
with you, examine your
foundation, be sure you’re right

1223
01:22:41,240 –> 01:22:44,160
because there’s no comfort in
being wrong.

1224
01:22:45,920 –> 01:22:50,000
And so our time has elapsed.
We do thank you for having come.

1225
01:22:51,160 –> 01:22:54,640
We are going to close with a
hymn and a prayer.

1226
01:22:55,440 –> 01:22:59,320
And then we’re going to ask you
if you’d like to stand, stay

1227
01:22:59,320 –> 01:23:03,640
around and talk to Mr. Badger.
Ask him questions.

1228
01:23:03,680 –> 01:23:06,240
Give us your name and address.
We promise this.

1229
01:23:06,240 –> 01:23:09,720
We will not hound you.
We will not come to your home

1230
01:23:09,920 –> 01:23:14,960
uninvited, but we would come to
your home if you wanted to and

1231
01:23:14,960 –> 01:23:18,880
welcome us with our Bible in
hand and your Bible and sit down

1232
01:23:18,880 –> 01:23:21,440
together.
It is important that we look

1233
01:23:21,440 –> 01:23:26,120
into these things because your
future is at stake.

1234
01:23:26,880 –> 01:23:28,560
Your eternal salvation is at
stake.

1235
01:23:29,160 –> 01:23:30,960
Do not take this lightly.
Do not think.

1236
01:23:30,960 –> 01:23:32,400
Oh well, it doesn’t really
matter.

1237
01:23:32,640 –> 01:23:34,520
All roads lead to the same
place.

1238
01:23:34,520 –> 01:23:36,560
They don’t.
That’s even why we have Rd.

1239
01:23:36,560 –> 01:23:38,520
maps, because if you go on the
wrong Rd. you’re not going to

1240
01:23:38,520 –> 01:23:40,880
get where you want to go.
And a lot of people don’t even

1241
01:23:40,880 –> 01:23:45,160
know where they’re going.
So let’s use our Bible as a road

1242
01:23:45,160 –> 01:23:47,120
map and it will take us all to
the same place.

1243
01:23:47,120 –> 01:23:51,840
And that place is the truth.
So we’re going to come to a

1244
01:23:51,840 –> 01:23:55,480
closed out of Singing Together
hymn #161 from the Trusted

1245
01:23:55,480 –> 01:24:01,720
Alchemy Hymn Book and A Word of
Prayer in 161.

1246
01:24:03,000 –> 01:24:06,320
The first few lines of that hymn
read as follows.

1247
01:24:07,720 –> 01:24:10,600
The church.
Interesting.

1248
01:24:10,760 –> 01:24:13,600
We’re talking about foundation.
Check your foundation.

1249
01:24:13,800 –> 01:24:22,360
The church’s one foundation is
Jesus Christ our Lord hymn #161

1250
01:24:22,720 –> 01:24:26,520
great and glorious almighty
sovereign.

1251
01:24:27,760 –> 01:24:32,560
Look down and hear our humble
prayer, for we seek thee through

1252
01:24:32,560 –> 01:24:37,000
Jesus Christ our Lord.
We thank Thee, Father, for this

1253
01:24:37,000 –> 01:24:41,960
time we spent together, this
time to open thy book and

1254
01:24:41,960 –> 01:24:47,120
compare it to the religion of
our friends around us, to

1255
01:24:47,120 –> 01:24:52,520
compare the written word
inspired and God breathed with

1256
01:24:52,520 –> 01:24:56,920
the writings of men.
And we thank Thee, Father, for

1257
01:24:56,920 –> 01:25:00,800
the assurance that Thou has
given us, that these words which

1258
01:25:00,800 –> 01:25:03,640
You have written are able to
make us wise to salvation.

1259
01:25:04,560 –> 01:25:08,720
And we pray, Father, that we may
not be guilty of that sin of

1260
01:25:10,320 –> 01:25:13,920
placing before Thy word the
traditions of man.

1261
01:25:14,560 –> 01:25:18,400
For Thy Son has told us that if
we do this, that we truly

1262
01:25:18,400 –> 01:25:22,240
worship Thee in vain.
And, Father, we don’t want to be

1263
01:25:22,240 –> 01:25:25,520
mistaken.
Father, we do love Thee.

1264
01:25:26,320 –> 01:25:31,320
We want you to love us, but we
know that You love those that

1265
01:25:31,320 –> 01:25:33,840
love Thee and put their trust in
Thee.

1266
01:25:34,960 –> 01:25:39,080
Help us send Father to not
follow comingly divided fables,

1267
01:25:39,080 –> 01:25:45,560
but simply Thy written words.
Father, we seek Thy help, and we

1268
01:25:45,560 –> 01:25:47,800
thank Thee for this Church that
You have given us, that if we

1269
01:25:47,800 –> 01:25:51,280
lack wisdom, and we ask Thee
that Thou wilt give it to us,

1270
01:25:52,000 –> 01:25:56,400
until we now ask for Thy wisdom,
that we might rightly divide Thy

1271
01:25:56,400 –> 01:26:02,760
word of truth, that we might
know Thy plan and purpose, that

1272
01:26:02,760 –> 01:26:05,280
we might do those things with
Thou hast commanded.

1273
01:26:06,280 –> 01:26:08,800
For we know thou hast told us
that thy Son is soon to come,

1274
01:26:09,720 –> 01:26:12,720
that he will take out of the
Gentiles of people for his name,

1275
01:26:13,280 –> 01:26:17,080
that he is choosing those that
are to live and to reign with

1276
01:26:17,080 –> 01:26:19,720
him.
We thank Thee for the assurance

1277
01:26:19,720 –> 01:26:24,000
that you’ve told us that soon
Thy faithful sing a new song,

1278
01:26:25,000 –> 01:26:28,320
singing even to Thy Son, the
Lord Jesus Christ.

1279
01:26:28,800 –> 01:26:33,560
Think to Him that He is faithful
and worthy to open the book, for

1280
01:26:33,560 –> 01:26:38,000
He was slain and has redeemed us
to God by His blood out of every

1281
01:26:38,000 –> 01:26:43,040
kittered and tongued people and
nations, and that we can reign

1282
01:26:43,440 –> 01:26:48,600
on this earth with Him forever.
Father, we want our friends to

1283
01:26:48,600 –> 01:26:52,320
share in this glorious hope.
Thank you for bringing us

1284
01:26:52,320 –> 01:26:55,080
together.
Bring us back together, Father,

1285
01:26:55,080 –> 01:26:58,920
that we might reason together
and walk hand in hand to Thy

1286
01:26:58,920 –> 01:27:01,760
Kingdom.
Dismiss us then, now with Thy

1287
01:27:01,760 –> 01:27:06,320
blessing, and fill our hearts
with joy and peace, Thy peace

1288
01:27:06,320 –> 01:27:09,720
that passeth all understandings.
We offer our prayer and give

1289
01:27:09,720 –> 01:27:13,120
Thee our Thanksgiving to the
worthy name of Christ Jesus our

1290
01:27:13,120 –> 01:27:14,880
Lord.
Amen.

1291
01:27:28,320 –> 01:27:30,400
Thank you for listening to the
good Chris Adelphian Talks

1292
01:27:30,400 –> 01:27:33,000
podcast.
We hope this talk helped you in

1293
01:27:33,000 –> 01:27:34,520
your walk and brightened your
day.

1294
01:27:35,680 –> 01:27:37,720
If you would like to hear more,
please subscribe for new

1295
01:27:37,720 –> 01:27:40,280
episodes.
We are on all major podcast

1296
01:27:40,280 –> 01:27:44,360
platforms and also on YouTube.
If you enjoyed this particular

1297
01:27:44,360 –> 01:27:46,840
talk, please share it with
someone else who you think might

1298
01:27:46,840 –> 01:27:49,600
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For show notes on the talk you

1299
01:27:49,600 –> 01:27:53,680
just listened to, visit
[email protected]

1300
01:27:53,960 –> 01:27:56,440
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section of your podcast player.

1301
01:27:57,720 –> 01:28:00,200
Please share your thoughts on
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1302
01:28:00,200 –> 01:28:02,920
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1303
01:28:02,920 –> 01:28:06,200
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1304
01:28:06,200 –> 01:28:07,760
where these talks are posted as
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1305
01:28:08,120 –> 01:28:10,760
If you enjoy listening to the
talks that we post and here one

1306
01:28:10,760 –> 01:28:13,000
that you think we should share,
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1307
01:28:13,560 –> 01:28:16,560
You can send us a suggestion
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1308
01:28:16,560 –> 01:28:19,600
website or message us on any of
our social media accounts.

1309
01:28:20,200 –> 01:28:23,080
Thank you for listening.
God bless and talk to you next

1310
01:28:23,080 –> 01:28:23,320
week.