Dave Pogson - Atonement - Class 2

Automatically transcribed. Accuracy is good but not perfect, and words are sometimes wrong. Trust the audio over the text.

1. 0:03

   Brothers and sisters, young people and friends, once again we have the opportunity to consider the Word of God. As I said before, Brother David Pogson is leading his second study on the atonement and he’s asked as an introduction, we we take a reading from Genesis chapter 3.

2. 0:21

   Now be pleased to invite Brother David to speak to us on the atonement for second study. Could we bring up this way a bit just so I can turn it over? Thank you.

3. 1:05

   Just got to get all the technicals right. I dropped this on the ground. I hope it’s still all right. It’s a great idea. When you’re deaf, you can’t tell whether you’re speaking loud or soft. We’ve got these engineers up. It doesn’t matter how I set to speak. It comes across OK, but boy, they’re working hard. Look at them.

4. 1:31

   Wow, OK, not closing them. OK, OK. It’s a. Bit warmer tonight. Bit warmer. It’s a battle for me and it’s a battle for you, all right? OK, so in our studies on the atonement and the word atonement is essentially an Old Testament words, not a New Testament word, OK. The word atonement itself ranges in many, but basically means the steps that lead up to divine acceptance.

5. 2:23

   OK. Sometimes the time that’s used to mean forgiveness. Sometimes it’s it’s used for something completely different to that, but as a general rule, the word atonement, right, which in the in the Hebrew came. From Cape, which means to cover, OK, but there are many words in the Old Testament which means cover. It’s one of them, OK. And primarily you’ve probably read it in the Concordance. The primary first use offered his pitch from now a pitch to the ark.

6. 3:00

   Most of you had heard of that and now that’s also used to the can’t remember it now, but of a a plant they use for dying. OK, so that’s it’s two physical uses. So, so, so the idea is it’s a but in, in, in practice, it represents any step or all the steps that is necessary for sinful man to go through so that he can approach under God.

7. 3:30

   OK, so it doesn’t mean forgiveness, even though sometimes it does mean forgiveness. Sometimes it can be looking at the result. Sometimes it can just mean acceptance. OK, so so like Jesus Christ didn’t have to be forgiven anything, right, But to be saved out of being mortal, to be saved out of his temptation, to be saved out of death, he had to go through certain processes, certain steps, and those steps are tenant steps. OK, so get that very clear in your mind if. Because there’s a misconception, there’s brethren walking around, some are saying.

8. 4:14

   That Christ didn’t have to obtain for his nature. Some said, say he did have to attain for their nature and and and they’re not defining their terms, OK. They could be right, they could be wrong. That’s how they understand it. What makes a difference? OK, so we’re looking for keys, OK, Keys. And one of the great keys is that is the concept of families.

9. 4:41

   OK, God’s a father and he’s having a family and he’s got us into families. And that’s a great key of the atonement. I can’t. I don’t think you can fully understand the. Principles of the atonement without understanding that God works on family principles. OK, I mean, you just look at Christ was one of us. And he’s, we belong to his family. We belong to the divine family.

10. 5:06

    Behold, I and the children God have given me. Now in family life, if one member of the family gets into trouble, it could affect the whole family. If one member of the family gets a great blessing, a new job or something like that, the whole family gets a benefit. Or, or if one comes top on the site in mathematics, it’s an honor of the whole family. You know, there’s a sharing in family life. There’s a sharing of the the disabilities on the one hand and the benefits on the other, the sufferings and the glory. OK, you’re going to share a glory that really only belongs to God and Jesus Christ, but you’ve got to be in the family, but you’ve got to share the suffering that goes with it. That’s a family concept and it’ll just help you understand the atonement if you use that key, a family language, of course, that’s what the Bible talks about. God is, as we pointed out in Hebrews, He’s bringing many sons under.

11. 6:07

    Glory. Sons, it’s the family thing, the glory. And he’s made our chief leader. And that was a key idea. He’s a chief leader. He made him, made him one of us and our captain. And that’s a family thing. But that idea of captain is a key and understanding. He’s a chief leader, OK.

12. 6:29

    And of course, he was born and married, begotten of God, and he came down into our world, into our situation, and he had the lead believers to salvation. And there’s this big gap here. And as we pointed out, the big gap, of course, is temptation and mortality itself. OK, there, that’s the gap.

13. 6:52

    But no one apart from him was able to build a bridge across. So our captain is a captain because he’s more able, hopefully in this case, because he is more able, all right? And because he’s more able, even though we’re called all of him, we expect him to do things as well as what we can do.

14. 7:11

    We expect him to do things beyond that with God’s help. None of this can be done without God. God’s behind everything to do things that we can’t do, OK? And there’s many things in salvation we can’t do, all right. We couldn’t bring, as it says in Romans chapter 10, faith doesn’t say I can earn this.

15. 7:31

    Faith says who’s going to bring Christ down from above? He’s going to bring him up from the deep. Salva. That’s absolutely essential salva. We can’t think about it, OK? Christ couldn’t bring himself from the dead, even though he had this authority to lay down his life and to take it again. It says God raised him and he couldn’t raise himself from the dead. And, and none of this anyway can be achieved without holding God’s hand.

16. 7:56

    There’s just no way. Out of that, yeah. So that Captain idea is a key idea. OK. And Christ is never considered for the purpose of salvation on his own. You can’t isolate Christ and say, well, if he didn’t have to save anybody else, what would God require of him? That’s completely out of order, you know, and and and they quote from Hebrews that he has that he too had to this he did once offer for his own sins and for the people.

17. 8:29

    This he did once OK, But when you go back to offer free zone seems it’s taken of of of our readings yesterday and today, OK, in Exodus 2728 and beautiful readings and and later on Leviticus. Well, I’m thinking of particularly, OK, where Aaron had to offer first, but in the first occurrence where ever where that occurs, this requirement he had to offer for himself and his family, then for the nation. And then that gets that gets shortened in later verses and in later chapters to offer for himself, but it always means for himself and his family, then for the nation. So there’s no situation in Scripture where Christ just simply offers for himself.

18. 9:30

    He offers right as a represented man, representing the whole redeemed us and himself. And that’s the only way you’ll understand it. We don’t know what God would require. We haven’t got a clue. We get all these theories about it and it’s all right to have an opinion about it, providing you’re not feeding some wrong idea on the atonement. But we don’t really know.

19. 9:53

    We don’t know, as we read in the last occasion. Brother Carter says we may reverently say he wouldn’t have to went through what he went through the way he went through it, except because of our situation, OK?

20. 10:09

    We talked, then we went. We go to Genesis chapter 1, verses 26 and 27. Man made an image and likeness of God. Is it? We’re at Genesis. Chapter 126. Chapter 126 And Elohim said, Let us make man in our image and after our likeness, and let him have dominion. Verse 20 Right And Elohim blessed them, and God said unto them, Be fruitful, and multiply, and replenish the earth, and subdue it, and have dominion. So we considered on the last occasion. What this image and likeness of God was, OK. And we looked at the mind and we looked at consciousness and, and here’s its clock rate and so on.

21. 11:00

    And we broke up the mental and moral areas, OK, into these sections here, moral faculties, lust, emotions and memory, OK. And we listed a few of the things that come under those headings. All right. Although you might disagree, some you reckon might be over here. Not that doesn’t matter really, OK, The the the whole point is that it was made in the image and likeness of God in that he had a bundle of potentials here that other animals didn’t have and he was an animal animal nature, the earth earthy, OK, a natural body, OK, but the other the animals didn’t have these divine capabilities.

22. 11:45

    Now, capabilities are not virtue. They’re only virtue if you develop them and use them, OK, That’s when they become a virtue and without. And that the mind is so complex. We discussed at length on the last occasion the sign that the mind is so complex. It would require God to actually educate this mind to get the result out of here that’s required.

23. 12:15

    OK. And we quoted how Solomon said only God knows the mind. He’s the only one that’s just too complex. He created it. He knows what we he gives it to us all right, and he educates us. And we emphasize the great power of education. Now it’s more important having the physical power of the Holy Spirit.

24. 12:36

    It would be handy, but many men had it and they didn’t have a spiritual mind by bail. OK, you can’t. You can’t receive anything more awesome and wonderful than God’s own thinking communicated to you through the education. Of the word. And the education of the experiences of life. You just can’t get anything more awesome than that. There’s no feeling.

25. 12:59

    You don’t actually feel it. It’s education times, the the aura written that stirs you up and you get awful zealous about. That’s great, OK? The emotions can get stirred in a good way, OK. And we can go through all that again the other day and go through all that again. Now, everyone’s got these in varying degrees.

26. 13:21

    Everybody out there, you’re here, OK? But unless these are reigning over the rest, the process of thought is actually called the carnal mind. People out there may be using all this, but these have been oriented by the culture in which they live or their religion or their lack of it or whatever, whatever.

27. 13:47

    So they they develop their own values in their moral faculties. They’ve got moral faculties, OK. And you know that from experience, OK. And President, what’s the president? You know this bushy. Yeah, Bushy. That’s right, he. He warned the American people, he warned the American people that their personal values must rise higher than their culture.

28. 14:21

    In other words, he’s saying all the media are getting across and all TV gets across you is unreal and it’s immoral. OK, we’re going to learn family values, OK, And we’re going to live orally upright life. Don’t live like what you see on entertainment That that that no so everything beyond that really constitutes even though they’ve got these moral faculties, it is constitutes the carnal mind and because these aren’t oriented properly, OK. What takes over is these areas here. OK, the lust, the flesh, the eye and the pride of life. That’s what takes over and what rules is here. This is where the crown is OK in people in that. Situation and to us to we hope a lot lesser degree. So that leads us on to.

29. 15:27

    The the next. Chart. So here’s where we’re up to now. OK. And we’re looking at the serpent and we’re looking at Genesis chapter 3. And anything I say now, as far as I’m aware, you’ll find it all in the first third of Elpis Israel. OK, no greater writing on the atonement than the first third of Elpis Israel.

30. 15:49

    None of our other writings goes through the fall of man in detail, the effect on his mind, his body, and the effect that it had upon the consequent world. That’s he calls it the development of the foundation of all. Nowhere else and any of our writings that extent have we an exposition that even comes near that we don’t have to agree with every fine data, OK, but the feel of it and the general thrust of it is right. And I can remember reading it, as, you know, I think I was 16 years old and barely got an education, and I couldn’t understand all the big words.

31. 16:29

    But I didn’t have a parent. But I didn’t have a father. I didn’t know what grown up was all about, you know, And I couldn’t understand. Here I was 15 and 16. I didn’t know what made me chick. Now I read up as Israel that put me 20 years ahead of myself. I read that first third, and I probably missed 50% of it.

32. 16:51

    But out of that 50%, I understood now what made me chick, why I was the monster I was and and what I had to do about it. It’ll put you 20 years ahead of yourself, OK, That first third of Albert Israel. And you can talk to young people and you can talk to brethren.

33. 17:10

    And in their discussion you can know whether they’ve read it or not. OK, let’s stick to the subject. So a young fella came over from Williston during the week and he would just to start off his preparation for baptism is and I thought I better practice what I have preached. I said last time we we’ve got to make more on this in public.

34. 17:39

    Lectures. It’s got to be simple. It’s just got to be a union, a man, mortal and God manifestation. Remember I said that? I thought, well, I better do that before we always take them through the statement of faith for baptism. I thought we’ll get straight into Claus troll and start there. Then we can go to the founder.

35. 17:58

    So we went into that and and anyway, he’s looking at this. He he and and we hadn’t turned over to this next student. We never got to there. We stuck there most here most of the time. And that one, the chart where Christ Chris died. OK. And I’m always telling these little stories, but he looked down those and he said, yeah, the animals haven’t got it, he said. He said I’d.

36. 18:21

    Take our dog for a walk every evening. Here I am. I’m taking this dog. He’s locked up in the yard all day, and I take him out for a walk in the evening. She’s showing me gratitude. No way. He won’t do a thing, I said. So he got that message. The animals haven’t got moral fashion. If they have, they’re to no extent. OK, So here’s the serpent.

37. 18:49

    And this is Help us Israel. He’s got lust, he’s got plenty of reasons, he’s got memory, he’s got pair of speech, he’s got all that. He hasn’t got any moral faculties. OK. And that is the carnal word. Carl just means flesh. That’s the fleshly mind there. OK. And that’s what Adam and Eve, of course, we’re tempted with now, I read. Just then from Genesis 126 and 28, and they were commanded to replenish those, but they were commanded to have dominion over the beast to feel for.

38. 19:33

    And after they’ve been around a little while, they must have had a good look at themselves and said we’re an animal and, and the message is they should have dominion over themselves as well as creation. Because they were animal, I knew a good part of them was animal. I knew they were also in the image of likeness and they they must have got that message.

39. 19:53

    They should have had dominion of the animal that’s in themselves, even though that animal at that stage was in a very good state. Don’t you go to sleep? Child, you just closed your eyes, OK? All right, he said. I’ve been through this that many times. OK, so we’ve just read in the account, OK, and it was to have Dominion OK in Genesis chapter. Three.

40. 20:35

    All right. And we know the story, OK, but there is some ideas around that I think are basic. The atonement. They’re even in our Sunday school notes and I don’t think they should be there about this particular incident. And I, if I earn, I earn good company. What I’m saying straight from helpless Israel. OK, but we’ll come to that in a moment. So God’s developing those moral faculties back and he’s given them a law.

41. 21:09

    OK. And God’s educating them and he’s giving them a law, and that’s the setting up a situation of trial. OK. And trial is absolutely essential. How can you develop loyally without trial? How could you develop patience? It’s not there without trial. How could you develop duty without trial? You know, one of the greatest characteristics, moral characteristics of God is patience.

42. 21:42

    How can you do that if anything’s rose in the Garden of Eden and there’s just absolutely no test whatsoever? Yeah, there’s just a lack of opportunity to develop those moral faculties. Oh, they might be there and you might get a little bit of them, but God wants them tuned up to be his moral faculties. OK.

43. 22:05

    God’s not just developing A subspecies. Be holy, for I am holy. God’s developing His own moral values in His children. That’s a family thing you do with your kids. It’s hates in the physical. Soon as they start growing a bit, you start communicating to them what’s. Fair and what’s You go through the law stage of what’s fair and then you’ve got to teach the other ones. To put up with the littlings for a while because they’re not. So, you know, and then when the the little bloke stamps on the the older ones model aeroplane, you know, you’ve got to teach them to be a little bit gracious about those things. You know, the everything can’t be strict equity, OK. And you learn that family principles, we did that ourselves.

44. 22:50

    Well, God’s doing that. I don’t think it’s a marvellous in its detail, but it’s nothing strange. And therefore they had to have this law and it carried the death sentence, of course, all right. It carried that death sentence and and, and that indicated straight away that they were given life. And to have life all right is a great privilege, and Romans Chapter 9 tells us that just being given life does not give us a title to eternal. Life.

45. 23:25

    Nor does it even give us a title. To have a chance for eternal life, that’s challenging. That’s challenging. All right, A kangaroo didn’t ask to be born a kangaroo, and he gets no chance to eternal life, and he’s got life. So just being born doesn’t give you the title to have the chance for eternal life.

46. 23:50

    OK. And eternal life is just not eternal life. It’s sharing God’s own immortality. OK, it’s an awesome thing. And that’s a human preconception. We’ve got to get out of our mind. Why does this happen to me? Yeah. Why these other people’s got the people got this chance. But Romans Chapter 9 says, well, we’re going to argue about rights, He says. Romans Chapter 9 says if you’re going to argue about rights, you can forget it.

47. 24:23

    God will have mercy on whom he’ll have mercy on whom he hardeneth, he harness. Oh, is there a shall we find unrighteousness with God? That’s unfair. Yeah. Jacob, have I called and he saw have I hate and love and he saw have I hate it. That’s unfair. It looks unfair. OK, But it carefully says God takes out of the one lump the clay. The whole lump is not entitled to anything but what their clay gives them privilege to.

48. 25:01

    In other words, just because you’ve been given life does not give you a right to a chance to eternal life. That’s we’re talking about equity now we’re not talking family. We’re talking about anti Judaism where you earn. Eternal life can’t be earned. You can’t earn a part of God’s own eternal nature. You have to be tried forever to earn forever.

49. 25:27

    And that’s ridiculous, OK? Hence their very existence as a matter of grace and God’s saying, like your life, it’s the law, here’s my will. I’ve given you a life for my purpose. You go against that and you’ll lose your law. Some people have problems with that that Paul, Adam and Eve were condemned to death because they knocked off a a piece of. Fruit or something.

50. 25:56

    OK, but they don’t see the principles involved. OK, so trial comes and the trial? Comes in the in an external form comes in the an external form. OK, they they had it’s an external trial and why it’s an external trial because even though they had the lust of that’s the eye and the pride of life.

51. 26:23

    Now they weren’t so sufficiently strong that of themselves they would suggest transgression. All right, they had. You got to, as we’ve said in the last occasion, you got to have enough. Pride to do your hair. He’s got his hair cut and done tonight. So that’s all right. You got to have enough pride to Polish your boots, keep yourself clean and so on.

52. 26:44

    OK, Stop hiding there. He’s hiding under his hands now and and you know, there’s nothing wrong with the lust of first in the eye and the problem of it’s animal, but it’s necessary. You can’t do without its hormones. You can’t do without all its functionalism that’s part of a natural body, OK? And there’s nothing wrong with that, OK.

53. 27:06

    But they weren’t strong enough to suggest a wrong thing of themselves. OK, And. Therefore, wrong ideas had to be communicated to them externally. And that’s exactly what happened. OK. And God did that. He raised up that beast all right, for necessary purposes.

54. 27:29

    And of course he suggests a lie. And of course, he has no. Moral faculties. So he doesn’t know it’s a lie. That’s a lie, OK? He doesn’t know it’s disbelieving God. That’s disbelieving God, OK?

55. 27:47

    He doesn’t realize that it would be unloyal and and thankless and everything to ignore God. He can’t understand any of that, OK? All he knows is that the angels have got the knowledge of good and evil and they’re glorious beings. They’re not dead. They don’t look like dying. And he’s a pure scientist from observation, OK? Observation says you eat it.

56. 28:17

    You’ve been a simple saying, you read it, you’ll be an Angel, you aren’t done, OK, And that’s what was put to it. OK, verse 3 but of the verse four. And the serpent said unto the woman, Thou shalt not, thou shalt not surely die. For God doth know that in the day you eat thereof, then your eyes should be open.

57. 28:42

    You should be like the angels knowing good and evil all right then verse 6 says, and when the woman saw the tree was good for food, pleasant the eyes and make one wise she took it pick up the word when so something obviously happened between verse 5, which is the last words of the serpent.

58. 29:10

    God says God, he said God knows you won’t die. You’ll be like the angels, OK? You like like you’re now good and evil. You’ll be angelic. OK, so then there’s obviously something happens between verse 5 and 6. What happens? On your young brothers, what happens between 5:00 and 6:00?

59. 29:42

    It’s hot tonight, they got their eyes open, but that’s about all. Sorry. What’d he say? Ask the question again. Start the question. She starts the question. He’s been to school, the prophets. He’s.

60. 30:08

    Well, we’re told exactly what happened, OK, and you want should write your margin these verses. What happens between verse 5 and 6 is found in Hebrews 312, First Timothy 214, and 2nd Corinthians 11 and 3.

61. 30:32

    To. Start with. She starts to question. That is, she has no answer. To this serpent, the serpent’s logic, his logic, his reasoning seems correct, and she has no answer for it. OK, she has no answer. Then she makes the mistake of responding to 1st impulsive thinking, which you should never do. That might come across you.

62. 31:07

    You may laugh at a promise of God. Like Sarah. But when she sat down and thought about it, Hebrew says she believed. OK. So we’re told she entered virtually into a state of unbelief. And let’s look at 2nd Corinthians 11/3.

63. 31:38

    2nd Corinthians 11 verse 3 says verse 2 I’m jealous over you with the godly jealousy, for I’ve espouse you to one husband, that I may present you a chaste virgin to Christ. Verse 3 For I fear lest by any means has the serpent beguiled these through his subtility, so your minds may be corrupted from the simplicity that’s in Christ. So she was beguiled and her mind was corrupted. OK, we find in Timothy, First Timothy 214. It gives 3 reasons why the sisters should not usurp authority over the man but be in silence. Verse 12 of First Timothy 2.

64. 32:48

    The first reason is verse 13 for Adam was first formed. Then a. The second reason is Adam was not deceived, but the woman being deceived was 3 in the transgression. So a reason 1 Adam was first formed. Reason 2. The woman was deceived, reason 3. She was in, that is part of the transgression, part of the fall of man, in other words. And for those three reasons, she was not to teach, to keep silence in the ecclesia and not usurp authority over the man. So the point is, what went on?

65. 33:37

    She was deceived. And how we read, just read from Corinthians, that her mind was beguiled and corrupted. Let’s look at what this state of mind is like. Hebrews chapters 3 and four are all about unbelief. Like nowhere else in the Bible, it points up the malady of unbelief and what it constitutes when you father, believe what God has said. Hebrews 3, verse 12.

66. 34:23

    Take heed brethren, lest there be in any of you what an evil heart of unbelief in departing from the living God. Verse 19. So you see that they, that is Israel could not enter in the land. Why? Because of unbelief. Again in chapter 4. OK, it keeps repeating this, the end of verse 6. Because of unbelief.

67. 34:59

    Verse 11 fall after the same example of unbelief. Unbelief is a evil state of the heart. So let’s go back to Genesis 3. Did someone ask a question then? No, sorry, it was just a yawn. So what happened between verse 5 and 6 was. That she believed the serpent, which means she had to disbelieve God and a disbelieving God, and in believing the serpent had a deep psychological effect on her mind.

68. 35:44

    A deceived and a corrupted and an evil heart. I don’t think I have to go into all this. I think we’ve all experienced. It. You know when you can be in a good frame of mind. You know, when passions can shut off that and you can descend into an evil state of mind, the basic to the atonement and basic to the record in Genesis is unbelief versus belief.

69. 36:15

    It’s faith versus lack of faith. OK. And that’s fundamental. And you say, well, that’s too simplistic. Well, I put it to you in your, in our personal lives, OK? I mean, God is everything and God is present everywhere at all times. Now, if you could sustain that in every situation, there’s no way you’d do most of the things that you do wrong.

70. 36:41

    There’s no way you wouldn’t do it if you. I mean, the funny part is that if someone said challenge you and watch your belief and they said if you believe that we’re going to shoot you, you know, the army or something, The funny part is you’d stand up and get shot. But in another situation, you behave as if God wasn’t there.

71. 37:04

    What goes on? OK, what goes on? We shut off the moral factories. We just draw a blind and. They don’t exist and we start thinking like this and it takes over. And when it satisfied itself. The blind runs up by itself and all the moral factories come back in and you feel absolutely rich. True, true.

72. 37:45

    So that describes So what happened in the fall and why is this so important in the atonement? The first right problem is disbelieving what God has said. And believing something else, in this case, deceived her. She was deceived, OK. And she believes something else now. That’s what happened. So she’s in an evil state of mind.

73. 38:14

    You know, it’s like me when I was a kid and Mum goes out somewhere and I’m home by myself, you know, And there’s, there’s, there’s this white bread and there’s this. Butter, which was rationed in the war. And there’s the condensed milk and the coconut spread in this as certain jams. You can imagine what the sandwich finished up looking like.

74. 38:39

    That’s it. And it made me feel quite ill. But, I mean, I was in a state of excitement. I was out, and I had access to all these things that I could cover it up before she got home. But, you know, it’s a state of excitement of freedom from restriction, OK, Which was a healthy restriction. OK.

75. 39:00

    And so she wouldn’t understand this or even analyse it all. But this is all happening OK, and consequently they’ve been passing this tree for who knows? How long? All right. And looking at the fruit and saying, yeah, the fruit of death, you know, whatever, What? All right. But now to change the state of unbelief, the psychological effects, the nervous effects, who knows? It’s too complex to know, you know, Too complex to know. It stirred up the very good lust, the flesh, the very good lust, the iron, the very good blood of life. And they became very excited by unbelief, the psychology of unbelief, and all that’s involved in that. Consequently, she looked at the tree differently. It was good to look at the food.

76. 39:53

    It was. Good. Pleasant to the eyes OK and I’ve made one wise. And you could imagine her you know using all these moral faculties she’s had all right but eventually switching them virtually off. OK these were now in flames. This was now in control. And she could say, oh, and she thought she’d be bringing this in.

77. 40:18

    God wants me to be like the angels. There’s nothing wrong with being like the angels. Yeah, the. You know, the. That’s our hope, to be like the angels, you know, and, and, and, and all these things are getting wrongly used adversely. What you’re doing. Lust is so strong, it’s drawing a blind. And over all this, in the end, it’s just drawing a blind down. And that’s what we all experience. It’s called the carnal thinking.

78. 40:53

    It’s called the carnal mind. All right, her actually disobeying and taking of that that fruit was more or less inevitable. We must realize what the possibilities are here. She needn’t have done that.

79. 41:15

    She needn’t have done that at all. What should she have done? It’s easy for us to say. What should she have said? Well, she was educated by God. She’d been educated in moral. Principles as well as how to how to build houses and keep them clean and all that thing and and preparing her for motherhood, which she obviously physically wasn’t quite ready for yet but parents to be good parents are going to have good education before they’re ready for that and due time and God would have increased their.

80. 41:46

    Relationships so that they could come together to have a family, but they’d be ready for God. Like in Christ’s case. He always prepared the mind ahead of the body. At 12 years of age, he’s the head of puberty. Wasn’t he always prepared and guts the way God operates? Where? Possible. OK, Now here was a trial. It could have been a great step forward or it could be a great step backwards.

81. 42:11

    Took a backward step. Now what should she have said? She should have said something like this. You know, something like this, She should have said, well, I don’t know the answer to that job, right? I don’t know the answer to that. But you know what? I’m not going to take that fruit because I owe God my life.

82. 42:34

    I owe my existence. I owe my loyalty. And even though I don’t know the answer to that, you sound right. I’m not going to do it. That’s what she should have said. And should have taken a great step in patience and loyalty and gratitude and awe and all those wonderful moral faculties. Would have taken a great leap forward. Here at the moment of greatest weakness, when she’s confused of mine and everything, and the serpent sounds right, here’s a moment of weakness which could have been a great step forward. But she chose to take a great step back. She’s free will, OK, And her passions weren’t inflamed like ours are, OK?

83. 43:24

    She had that choice and that shows how important free will and in the without it, he can’t operate without it. OK. He used to worry me a little bit. That passage about they said to Christ, why do you teach parables? Oh, he said and he quotes I was I unless saying they would say and hearing that understand and be converted, you think isn’t that what he wants you? Isn’t that what he wants?

84. 43:53

    You know, isn’t that what he wants? The simple fact is he spoke in parables. All an honest heart had to do was to come up later and say, what did you mean by that? They didn’t do it. They chose them to do it. They preferred to sort of be a bit vague about all that. If they found out a bit too much about it, it might in might interfere with their comfort zones in life. OK, in other words, you’ve got to make a choice. Good ground is said to be good and honest. You don’t have to be really bright. You don’t have to be the the the mighty of this world, but there’s got to be an intrinsic honest there to to when when you’re confronted with the facts, you are prepared to humble yourself and accept them.

85. 44:40

    That seems to be got to be there. So she could have made this great move in the right direction and she didn’t consequently in Scripture. And this is all. I’ve got it there, but in 8 pages you can read the section on the Carnal Mind and it’s magnificent. You’ll get all this. I’m just putting it in simple terms.

86. 45:04

    OK, you read those 8 pages on the count of mine and and they’ll. Possess rather get you all this all right, so let’s see if we’ve covered what we want there. See, he’s a moral being. He’s a self-centered creature. He wasn’t a Sinner himself, but he suggested sin and Eve should have the dominion over him. She didn’t.

87. 45:33

    She let the serpent have dominion over her, and the punishment fits the crime. If you want to be a servant, if you want the animals to have dominion over you, well, she was made a little bit more animalistic for that. Her lusts were inflamed. OK, The lust, the flesh, the eye, and the pride of life. Having taken the fruit, it had certain physiological effects. It wasn’t a change of nature.

88. 46:03

    We used the term change of nature. I think we should be more careful and say there’s a change in a Physiology. In other words, certain light and propensities were brought to maturity, as we will away. All right. And she suddenly found herself in a position with certain desires toward her husband that hitherto for weren’t weren’t anything as strong as that.

89. 46:29

    OK, consequently in Scripture the serpent is used for the carnal mind, you know, and John and Christ accuses the the Jews the devil is a father. OK, and a great discourse on that. And here we want to disagree with our Sunday school notes. OK, that goes on the side at the end of verse 6 it says, and she took the fruit thereof and did eat, and gave also to her husband with her, and he did eat. Just turn over the page to verse 17 and the judgement of Adam it said, 17 chapter 3.

90. 47:27

    And unto Adam, he said. Because. Thou hast hearkened under the voice of thy wife. She the the woman didn’t hearken to the voice of God.

91. 47:49

    She did initially. She allowed herself to be deceived away from that. Adam is condemned because he didn’t hearken under the serpent. He hearkened to the voice of his wife simply. It says here he gave also unto her husband with her, and he did it OK. And the consequence was the eyes of them both were open and that they knew they were naked and they tried to cover themselves with fig leaves.

92. 48:25

    All right, we know that story. Rather, Thomas Oh, the difference in the Sunday school notes is this the Sunday school notes suggest. And I can remember when they were first put together and who put them that idea in there and it’s sort of never gone out. OK. The general idea is, and it’s based on that quote in Timothy, if you’d like to just turn that one looked at before the first Timothy 214, just look at that. OK, it’s based on verse 14.

93. 49:24

    Adam was not deceived, but the woman being deceived was in the transgression and that that that verse is taken. And in the Sunday school notes, it suggests that Eve was actually deceived by the serpent and because she was deceived, she made a wrong decision and she transgressed, whereas they quote that quote. And so but Adam wasn’t deceived, OK, it says so there. And Timothy Adam wasn’t deceived, therefore he. Went in with his eyes open and knew exactly what was happening and it the side of his wife right and they they give all these ideas, his love for his wife and Lord, his life above of loyalty to God.

94. 50:11

    But the suggestion is he goes in absolutely, his eyes open and he just deliberately and coldly transgresses the law of God in favour of his wife and. That’s what it says in the senior Sunday school notes. OK, now we disagree with that. And you? And there’s a principle involved, and that’s the principle of unbelief.

95. 50:39

    The problem is whether you choose to believe a proposition that’s contrary to God’s Word. It’s as simple as that. And the whole base of transgression is either ignorance or unbelief, practical unbelief. That’s fundamental to the atonement. And for Adam, who’s the federal sinners to have entered in there without the principle unbelief, it just goes right out of the basic principle. I mean, why is Christ going around talking about faith? Little faith.

96. 51:15

    Have faith. If you’ve got faith, just believe. Just believe. Believe what you know. Faith was everything. The problem is people don’t believe. It’s a habit. Unbelief’s a habit, a terrible habit. We all do it OK? And Brother Thomas in that section on the carnal mind, she he describes at great length what Eve would have done and virtually seduced Adam into taking.

97. 51:45

    The the fruit, all right. She had ulterior motives, OK, and certain reasoning had entered into her, and it had blocked off her moral faculties. She is now under control of inflamed lusts and using her reasoning OK, she came along and became the tempter to Adam. Who’s not? Yet. Inflamed. OK. And she’s taken on board this sort of reasoning. And in her excited state, she tempts the man. You say, Well, the man’s not an excited state. He hasn’t eaten another fruit.

98. 52:24

    OK. And. But he’s got the same problem, OK, He’s got the same problem. She comes along and says yes, I’ve taken it, you know, yes, it’s like. Angels, it’s wonderful. And he has a good look at her. And he says on the day there is so they should surely die. She wasn’t dead.

99. 52:47

    In fact, she looked more alive than she ever looked. OK, she’s bright and rosy and pink. OK, She wasn’t dead. She was well and truly alive. Now obviously don’t you go to sleep it? Obviously you had a hard day. Obviously the serpent didn’t even try to tempt it, Adam. OK, it took a greater tempter to give an equal temptation to Adam.

100. 53:16

     It took the temptation of a woman that had actually eaten of it, OK, and participated in it, making all these lying claims about it because she’s got an ulterior motive and that’s to bring him and she deceives him. And you say, well, Timothy’s not saying that, OK. And rather, Thomas says, she succeeded in kindling the same lust that had taken possession of herself, his flesh, his eyes, and his pride of.

101. 53:48

     Life were all inflamed and he followed her and her either way as fools. To the correction. Of the stock, then it’s the principle. They had both. Fallen into unbelief.

102. 54:03

     He was deceived, you say? Oh, Timothy says he wasn’t deceived. Let’s look at Timothy again. Put on your thinking, Cap. Or his brother Carter would say, get up the lines of girt up your loins ready to run. In other words, start thinking. OK, just look, just for three minutes, Think ha, You ready? OK, it says verse 14 and Adam was not deceived by whom? But the woman being deceived.

103. 54:46

     Who was the woman deceived? By the serpent, correct? And that’s an ellipsis. It’s not there because you know it, but to. Read. In ellipsis means a word that’s understood to in the meaning, but it’s not actually air OK. In other words, the meaning is the woman was deceived by the serpent. OK. Therefore, the first one reads, Adam was not deceived by the serpent, that the difference he was deceived by the woman. And you say, how do you know that? But that’s what it’s saying there, OK, this we’ve got 3 reasons here why the women should be silent in the ecclesion being subjection and why the man should take the lead.

104. 55:39

     All right. Now it says she was deceived by the serpent and she was in the transgression. There she is in the transgression. She’s deceiving her husband. OK. OK, but do you think of the proposition say the Sunday school notes are wrong? Oh, don’t get me wrong, the Sunday school senior notes are wonderful notes.

105. 56:03

     I just disagreed on this point, OK? They’re wonderful notes. OK, I didn’t get up the lines of my mind. Where was I? Yeah. OK, so but the proposition of the notes is she was deceived and therefore she said, in other words, there’s a bit of an excuse for her sinning. But Adam wasn’t deceived, so there’s no excuse for him.

106. 56:37

     He went in deliberately and defied God and transgressed in knowledge and deliverance. Now which one should be leading the ecclesia? I would say the sisters should be leading the ecclesia at least. They got deceived, got tricked into transgressing. Whereas if Adam went in there with his eyes open, deliberately transgressed, he shouldn’t be leading the meeting.

107. 57:01

     Get the point? Can you follow? That reasoning, therefore it can’t be meaning that he wasn’t deceived. He was deceived the right, but he’s deceived with something far greater than a serpent. He’s deceived by his wife. And because she was more readily deceived by a servant, more readily deceived, and because she was involved in that transgression, she was relevant.

108. 57:28

     Before she was equal with Adam, she was relegated to the position of subservience. All right, So when they noticed the process here. That’s the process. Ideas are put. They ignore the moral issues. They blank out the moral responsibilities. That’s what they choose to do. And it leads to unbelief. Unbelief leads to excited lusts in both of them.

109. 58:03

     OK, not just in the all right and that leads to transgression and transgression brings its punishments and consequences, natural consequences and imposed consequences. OK, they. They’re and the fact that they are now we’re aware of their nakedness. This aware of their nakedness is a great flag. A flag is someone waving trying to attract their attention.

110. 58:31

     So it’s trying to attract their attention. It’s saying in delicate way, saying in a delicate way that certain of their propensities were not certain of all of them were awakened. But it picks on the section of propensity because that’s something easily understood, but only picks on that and uses them as a flag as saying the lust, the flesh, the lust they are and the pride of life, which isn’t so visible. OK, very invisible are all affected by this. They’ve chosen to follow serpent thinking. We, they’re, their propensities are now in flying to a point where they virtually are slave to them to a certain extent. They don’t need an external tempter anymore. They’ll get plenty of external temptation. They don’t need it.

111. 59:20

     You can get it from within there. We all know that from experience. OK, so it was a great flag. I mean when children get around, 2 year olds get around under the house, the boys, the little boys and girls with nothing on, it’s a sign of innocence. But when adults do that, it’s a sign of the very opposite, isn’t it? OK.

112. 59:46

     So of course Romans 5 and many places tell us we inherit these problems from Adam. OK, here’s Adam and Eve and we inherit and inflamed propensities when we come to puberty. Those things are enhanced in our minds. The worst of them is the pride of life. I think God Forgives a lot of things, but he won’t tolerate the pride of life.

113. 1:00:17

     He’ll have no flesh glory in his presence and the. Pride of life is far bigger problem than the other problems, far bigger, and they’re more subtle and we’re less aware of her. Extremely difficult. Problem. The pride of life is a terrible thing. So did anyone got any problems on what we put to you about Timothy?

114. 1:00:45

     There was any questions on that or could you follow my arguments there? No, never mind. OK, so let’s go to Romans 5 and just check those verses In Romans chapter 5 says what we inherit from Adam and and Eve.

115. 1:01:11

     Oh, time’s gone. Sorry to tell you, brother Chairman, but I forgot to tell you. You’re supposed to go like that 5 minutes ago. We’re sorry. We’ll take it up there on the next occasion.