Dave Pogson - Atonement - Class 1

Automatically transcribed. Accuracy is good but not perfect, and words are sometimes wrong. Trust the audio over the text.

1. 0:00

   What matter we have here is, has been given quite a few times at the schools of the prophets. They are groups, you’ve probably heard of them, particularly in New South Wales where I I operated for a fair while and recently once up here in in Brisbane. Can everyone hear me? Do you know? OK.

2. 0:28

   And therefore the material is essentially for young people, OK And it’s addressed particularly to young people here, OK. And that doesn’t mean to say that they the olds can’t participate in everything, but they’ll be I’ll be covering a lot of stuff that some of the olds now backwards, OK. And there’s still, there’ll be little bits and pieces in there that might be a little bit new. Or I don’t think he ever gets sick of going over the attirement anyway, do you?

3. 1:00

   OK, that’s good. Good to get someone else’s mind on it. You’ve never heard me on it. OK. And sure, I might make a few mistakes. I might be dead right and everything. That’s OK. You just point it out. I can be told. OK, If not during, after. OK. It’s one thing to understand the attirement.

4. 1:20

   It’s another thing to be able to articulate it. That is to be able to talk about it. It takes a while to develop that sort of skill, OK. And we find that I’ve over the years take a lot of young people through and and others for baptism. You get into the area of your atonement and they find it very difficult to express themselves. Quite often you’ve got to say to them, does this mean that or does it mean that?

5. 1:48

   And they can give you the answer, OK, But they find it very hard to articulate themselves on that subject, OK. And I noticed a lot of brethren in public lectures and that they, they have a bit of problem articulating themselves on the atonement, OK, I think so. So as we go through the subject, and it won’t be exhaustive as we go through the subject, maybe we can pass some hints on how we should be preaching the subject at our public lectures, as well as how we should be discussing it amongst ourselves and the sort of areas we can go to to learn more about it. OK, I’m not an intellectual by any means, I’m just a tradesman. OK, so most of us are not many wives, not many mighty. So if you smarties around, I don’t know you fellas, maybe this really bright.

6. 2:47

   He’s here anyway, any any questions I can’t answer, answer Al McGraw, I’ll answer for you, Sir. OK. Or Uncle Ron. Yeah. So to start with, before we get into a systematic thing, I’ve gone right into study two. I think it is. I’ve put up the sort of pivotal point of the study will actually start at the beginning, but I just wanted to tonight not prove, not tonight, but for 5 or 10 minutes. It’s not so much to prove anything. That’s just to put a proposition to you, OK? And most people can talk about certain elements of the atonement.

7. 3:31

   They can talk about man sin and where it comes from, OK. And they can talk about this and they can talk about that. But that that then when you ask them to find actually what a sacrifice is, you come up with all sorts of answers. OK, So and if I went round now and we haven’t got time, I’ve done it quite often at school. The prophets and the boys come up with all different things of what a sacrifice is.

8. 3:55

   As it turns out, none of them have ever been wrong. One will see sacrificed as as something that essentially cost you something for the sake of someone else. OK. And I can see here in knowing some of the boys, I said, oh, he got that off his father because I knew his father. You know what I mean.

9. 4:14

   And then and and they’ve come up with all these ideas and we didn’t the daughters was on once and they were outstanding. I went from table to table and and they would come up with different aspects of of what the sacrifice of Christ was all about. And none of them were wrong, but, but no one had a sort of complete picture either.

10. 4:40

    You know what I mean? Now, that’s pretty normal amongst us, depending on your personality, how long you’ve been the truth, how much you studied it and, and what points have come across to you from different speakers. So certain aspects, the atonement will come across to you. I, I think that, however, we’ve got to start making the subject a little simpler than we have, OK, especially for preaching the truth.

11. 5:10

    I mean the Apostle Paul, I mean, he went through the Greco Roman world. He’s talking to dark minded pagans half the time. He didn’t have a Jewish background or anything and he expected them to understand. And what did he go around preaching? He preached the things of the king. What else? Jesus Christ and him were crucified. Well, and you get you get these.

12. 5:36

    One might have been historic and one might have been a worship of the Greek gods. The other one might have been a Zoroastrian and all these different ideas. And only the Jewish helmet would have had any Bible background of any degree, although the Septuagint apparently was readily available in those days. And they would have heard of the Jews beliefs. And so there’d be something there. But he went round getting across to them, preaching Christ crucified.

13. 6:07

    Sure, He had the Holy Spirit and He could perform miracles and that sort of authenticated what He spoke was divine truth. And therefore people were more readily impelled to listen to what He said. But having listened to what He said, I must have understood it. Therefore it must be able to be understood at a very simple level.

14. 6:31

    OK. And on the other extreme, Paul in Romans, when he goes right to this subject and Alan’s got the wonderful privilege later in the year that takes me through Romans 1 to 8, even though the ecclesia’s got it wrong. It should be 1 to 10, but never mind about that. And if what was I talking about? Oh, wait, on the other extreme is in Paul and going right through it.

15. 7:02

    Thanks, that came back to me. As he said, The other extreme is as he goes right through this sermon in Romans, at the end of Chapter 11, he stops and exclaims how wonderful the wisdom of God is in this great plan of atonement. Isn’t that right? And what is he? Why he says his why is a past finding out.

16. 7:24

    In other words, this subject can be understood at such a simple level and yet everybody when they get in depth, gets lost. OK, And when you get lost, it’s time to grab the rope, haul up to the surface. You get and and and and latch into the simple levels and have another go.

17. 7:46

    Don’t get diverted way there and there in areas of a bit deep and then start development series and finishing up in a great big mess. OK, The atonement basically is very, very simple, but the language in the Bible on it is not simple, OK? It is not simple.

18. 8:11

    So tonight I’m proving nothing. Sorry, at this chart, I’m proving nothing at this stage. OK, I’m just putting a propositions to you. OK? So this might be right, it might be wrong. I just want you to know where we’re going, my word gap, OK? And our proposition to you is that a sacrifice that is sacrifice of Christ particularly, all right, But all other sacrifices pointed forward to it anyway, OK.

19. 8:41

    And there are many aspects of it, right? But fundamentally, I’m putting to you that the sacrifice is actually a full demonstration of certain facts or truths.

20. 9:00

    OK. Do you have a, an Easter show here like they’re doing NSW? I had. They caught the show, aren’t they? They caught the show here. Yeah. And then and then we’re up and I’ve been in, you know, on a cattle farm last 14 years. We used to go to the Ghana Dara and Crips, same sort of thing there.

21. 9:24

    There’s more farm machinery. And what’d you go there for? Well, apart from the steak sandwiches and a few other things, you mainly went to see the agricultural machinery and you expected in some of the cases to actually see them functioning. OK. I mean, it’s all right for salesman to bring out his leaflet and give you all the technical detail which you need to know, but in the end you say, OK, let’s see it work.

22. 9:55

    In other words, demonstrate it, OK. Every little word of the Lord, every concept of God, doesn’t matter whether it’s these concepts or any other truth, He always demonstrates them in life. Practically, you get the idea. He just doesn’t give you a a concept and say that’s truth. Except things that have not yet come to pass, of course, all right, but he will demonstrate it, you know, in circumstances with men.

23. 10:27

    OK, now what we’re putting to you is that concept. I’ve I’ve picked up this word demonstration from Romans chapter 3, whom God set forth to be a propitiation through faith in his blood. You know, the main one on the atonement to declare the word declare actually means to exhibit or demon meant to declare like it usually does.

24. 10:52

    It’s completely different word that means actually means to exhibit, demonstrate or show as you going to a show to see something operate. OK, so I don’t think that can’t understand as a you don’t have to accept that. I’m just putting to you at this stage that, Oh, there’s a lot more involved in it, but we’re putting to you basically it’s a demonstration of the facts. We, we suggest to you that these facts are certain truths, OK? We believe that we putting to you that there are certain truths about man and there’s certain truths about God that have been demonstrated here, OK,

25. 11:45

    for us to look at, to believe or disbelieve it. If we believe it, we’ll confess it. That is confess it’s right. And if it, if our belief’s that strong, we’ll start copying it and professing it, living it out, copying it. OK, Mind you, ours will never be a full demonstration, but it’ll be a demonstration we live out.

26. 12:12

    If we copy the life of Christ, we too will be a partial demonstration of the truths that we believe that we’re being taught about man and about God. Now, that’s the basic proposition. Is there any difficulties with that? Ben’s been through this before. Did you get that last time? Yeah, you did get on you.

27. 12:42

    He’s very attentive. Student must go with the prophets. All right, any young people, any problems with that? Just as a proposition. You don’t believe it. Can you understand the proposition? OK, we would put to you, and this is probably for a bit more for more advanced president. The subject of the atonement, you older blacks, is really just a combination of man rightly mortal on one hand and God manifestation on the other, and they’re just joined together and they’ve become one concept together.

28. 13:20

    Unfortunately, we have a habit of preaching man rightly mortal in our lectures and we preach God manifestation on the lectures. I suggest to you we’ve got to start teaching them together as the significance of Christ crucified. We’ve got to turn it to something simple enough to recommend itself to interested friends. And you can only make a subject, Paul, if you understand it. OK?

29. 13:52

    If you understand it. Pete, you’ve never been through these, have you? No, boy, am I going to give you a hard point. So you can only pick on your friends. Everyone else gets offended.

30. 14:07

    OK, So any you don’t have to believe what I put. You’ve got the basic concept. Anyone got problems? All of that can say, yeah, all right, so we’ve put to you that’s not enough to look at Jesus Christ crucified. You’ve got to look at the whole scene. OK, Pete. Where’s Pete? Pete in that scene demonstrated. Who’s the transgressors in that scene? Pete.

31. 14:56

    To either side. Anyone else? He’s missed something. He’s got the main ones. The crown. Good work. Good work. Top marks. You’re not allowed to go early. OK. Where, however, is human nature there, in that scene?

32. 15:25

    Everyone good on the job? Yes. Yell out mates. Don’t you, Sir, Oh, so good things come from Lismore. I’ll tell it. I’ll tell you a funny story. Sorry. Tell you a funny story. This involves one of Gel’s relatives, the last skill of the Prophets. You know, we’re giving all this stuff. And as we have 50 young people and it’s in a magnificent 7th Day Adventist complex, camping, they’ve got everything, so it must be worth millions of dollars.

33. 15:51

    But the boys have this, what’s called a Chapel, but it’s there’s this beautiful room that’s an Amphitheatre room. The seats will go up like that, like in the theatre. And you can sit down here and just talk normally and like, but alarmed by all this black and I didn’t know how I’ve been in the Bush for 14 years and all the kids have grown up now.

34. 16:11

    Don’t know who they are. You know, I could sort of recognize a few features I could see, I could recognize better. My first grandson from 10 miles off and he was a pain in the neck and, and anyway there was this bloke, he come along and I couldn’t tell because the scale of the prophets, you know what boys are like, they never make the beds and they don’t wash their clothes and they don’t. And they, they come to every session all crumply and their hair’s not done.

35. 16:44

    Like this bloke here, their hair’s not done And and they’re that scruffy. But then, and it’s hard to tell their ages, you know, and this bloke come along and I haven’t didn’t have a clue what he was, who he was. OK, I didn’t know whether he was 18 or 28. I still don’t know. And he sat like this big happy theatre and I’m speaking from here and he sat in that chair every session right in front of me, writing these things down.

36. 17:15

    OK. And then we got to the stage. What in the subject where what we inherit from Adam and what we don’t inherit from Adam. OK, and sure enough, it’s made out now. What was that again? He said, what do we inherit from Adam? I said we inherit sin for our nature. Yeah, same for now. What a mortality.

37. 17:38

    And he said, and what don’t don’t we inherit? We don’t inherit the guilt. OK, note this down. I’m thinking this poor guy’s had no background, yet he doesn’t seem to have a clue, you know? And this is the way he carried on for a few sessions anyway, as it turned off. I didn’t know who he was. It was early in the sessions and I shouldn’t be telling these stories.

38. 18:02

    But it turns out that it was his turn. Apparently they changed the chairmanships and the young people knew it was his turn to do the reading. And the reading was, I think was Romans 12. It was a magnificent reading. He read it magnificent. And I thought, what have I got? You know that he had black hair.

39. 18:31

    He had dark skin. He had pointy features. He’s starting to get a few clues now. Do you know what I’m talking about? What was that? You knew it was the start of it. The word has got around, but that luck had me fooled. It turns out it was one of his nephews and who’s his brothers married to a Greek girl with very foreign features.

40. 18:59

    And this young fella, all right, happens to be a a high school teacher or something. And and the and the Christadelphian school, he knows his subject backwards. And the blighter was sitting down there and being a school teacher, he was asking these questions and behaving like he knew nothing. For the sake of the 15 and 16 year olds. He had me caught mate.

41. 19:22

    I didn’t have a clue. OK, so let’s start from the beginning, OK? A lot of this most of you are aware of, but we build up as we go along. OK, so we just sung in our opening hymn, all right? Yeah, it’s just one great field, and God’s at work reaping a harvest, OK. And it’s interesting to realize that that God is doing that. And we know God.

42. 20:05

    There is but one God the Father, out of whom we’re all things. And we for him remember First Corinthians 8. Six you’re going to know that before you’re baptized men First Corinthians 6 you’re going to know backwards fundamental OK there’s one God OK, out of whom are all things and we for him one God the father if we’re for him and he’s the Father, who are we Pete? Who are we say sound asleep?

43. 20:43

    Sound asleep, had a hard night where couldn’t fix those telephones or something. OK, well, we for him, we’re the children. OK, so there’s one God the Father. This is one of the great statements of Scripture, of whom means out of whom is everything, but primarily out of whom are all things. And we’re for him, we’re his children.

44. 21:10

    OK, That’s what he’s doing. OK, that’s what he’s doing and the method he’s using, the method he’s using is and 1 Lord and the word Lord means Lord, very enlightening. 1 Lord Jesus Christ, through whom are all things, and we through him. So God’s got a method. He’s a father, he’s having children. He’s he’s selecting one child in particular to be the chief leader, the captain, the channel through which he’s going to do absolutely everything.

45. 21:50

    That’s basic. The atonement. It’s basic to understanding the atonement. OK, That’s basic to the concept of him being Lord, Being captains got the same idea. Being shepherds, got the same idea. He’s one of us, but he’s a leader, and everything’s channeled through the leader, and he’s leading. OK, Now that’s fundamentally atonement. You see all these arguments about whether Christ died for himself or whether he didn’t, whether he died for his nature, and people tie themselves up in the knots. Yet out of that simple concept, there is one Lord, 1 captain, all right, one shepherd, all right, on the base of that concept.

46. 22:42

    If you get that ground in your head, very simple, you’ll have no problem when you come to that part of the subject, as you’ll see, as you’ll see. OK, but isn’t it interesting that that God’s a father? He’s our shadow, and he’s shadow has that dual meaning of a Sacre, a mother, and he is a destroyer or a provider father. OK, so he is a total parent.

47. 23:18

    We aren’t. We need a wife. All right, That’s an admission, isn’t it? I mean, my hand’s too shaky because all these charts. Do I need a wife, mate? I really need a wife. OK, so. So what’s God done is the whole situation in life is meant to be built around families. He, our present life is a mixture of experiencing the divine and at the same time experiencing the opposite.

48. 23:49

    There’s nothing like contrast to learn to appreciate something. I mean, you don’t appreciate light to you in total darkness. You don’t appreciate good health right until you’re writhing in pain or sickness. You need all these contrasting experiences to develop an appreciation of a thing. OK, otherwise you’re a robot. You’re just part of the learning process. OK, so God’s at work.

49. 24:18

    This is his farm. It’s the earth. OK, it’s the Earth farm. And he works on a principle. My strength is made perfect through weakness. Can anyone remember where that quote comes from? The context of it’s not exactly those words.

50. 24:43

    Can’t hear you. 2nd Corinthians 13. Well done, well done. He’s talking about his sicknesses, wasn’t he? God’s given me a thought in the flesh and he found it very difficult to accept and it took him a long, long while to accept that sickness as a lot of us do. And I’m getting, it’s taken me a long while to accept the fact I’m old and boy, I’m old and I’m kicking against it.

51. 25:11

    OK, takes a long while, OK. But in the end he surrendered to it three times. He besought the Lord and he said my strength is sufficient for you, Paul. My strengths made perfect in weakness. At last he surrendered that he realized that when he was really physically ill and sick and depressed, and yet he’s still hanging on the truth and doing what he can in his debilitated state. But that was actually manifesting God’s strength better than when he was fighting fit and how to get out there and do everything.

52. 25:49

    And and not only so, but the very experience itself was searing into his mind, subconsciously or otherwise, his absolute dependence on divine strength and the absolute weakness of self, you know, just in a in a demonstrative and experimental experienced why he was getting that message into his own life. OK. And that’s fundamental to the atonement we’ve in God developing children and children of those who bear his likeness.

53. 26:29

    Can only be done through the experience of weakness. We know the purpose of God. Numbers 14. The whole earth will be filled with my glory. We’ll look at the glory in a minute. OK? Tonight we read in Hebrews chapter 2. You’re looking at Hebrews chapter 2, OK? Puts forth some very basic principles on the eternal OK, it says in chapter 2 and verse 10 for it became him, that is, God became God, for whom are all things. That’s exactly the same as First Corinthians 18. Six out of whom are all things, and we for him became him, for whom are all things.

54. 27:34

    That’s fundamentally atonement. You know the main feature of the atonement. You know why Christ died and you know why everything’s going on. You know how Christ died for first. How do you think Christ died for first, Pete? God yell it out bad bada. OK, OK. That’s where he died for first. He died to honour God, to vindicate God right, to declare God’s righteousness, that God is personally righteous.

55. 28:13

    Father, glorify thy name. I have glorified and I have glorified again. What’s the first commandment? I should love the look. What’s the first commandment? Hear, O Israel, Lord, our God is 1. Lord is 1. God the Father, out of whom are we? For him here is our Lord, our God, as one Lord. Thou shalt love the Lord thy God. That’s the first thing.

56. 28:37

    With all your heart, with all yourself, with all your strength. OK, then your neighbor as yourself. And it’s like under the first one, they’re all unselfish. They’re all reasonable, OK? And that’s the priorities. OK, So when we’re looking at the sacrifice of Christ, before we look at anything else, we look at God being honoured. That’s the first principle in the atonement, God being honoured.

57. 29:09

    The first principle is not we’re getting forgiven. The first principle is God’s been honoured and shouldn’t it be so? So it says it became him, Verse 10 For whom were all things, and we, and by whom are all things? Everything’s for Him, and he’s behind them all in bringing many sons unto glory. Bringing many sons under glory, we for him OK, to make the captain of their salvation perfect through suffering. Now the captain is there’s several Greek words and Hebrew words for captain.

58. 29:58

    This one is not the usual one occurs about four times, only four times. And it means the chief leader Archegos. Archi means chief Goss leader Archegos only occurs 4 * 2 of them in Hebrews. OK, if you want to look them up, it’s a very interesting concept. He’s the chief leader. If you want a key to understanding where the Christ died for himself, its relationship to us, then get this.

59. 30:37

    He’s the chief leader, OK, And it occurs in Acts 313, Acts 331, I think Hebrews 210. Hebrews 12/2, I think Acts 3 was Peter preaching the gospel, but in the temple there, and they accuse the Jews of putting to death, I think the Prince of life. Is that right? The Prince of life? And it’s actually should be the captain, the chief leader of Life.

60. 31:18

    OK. And Acts 331 is a similar thing, the chief leader of life. OK in Hebrews 12/2. I think that’s where we’re there. We just look at that one. Oh yeah, he’s called here the the captain or chief leaders actually translated the author. See those two looking under Jesus, the author and finisher of our of the faith. He for the joy that was set before him endured the cross in despise.

61. 32:02

    The shame is set down in the right hand of the throne of God. For consider him that endured such contradiction of sinners against himself, lest ye be weird and faint in your mind. He’s saying Jesus Christ started his work and he finished it and he’s a great example for you. He’s the chief leader author.

62. 32:26

    He begins a thing. He’s a a captain, takes the lead and he actually creates the path as he goes along. It was if it’s a mob of soldiers, he might have to have a big machete chopping away the jungle. He actually makes the path as he goes along. He’s also in that sense, OK, so but he’s the chief leader and the the word author. There should be captain or chief leader. To make the captain of their salvation perfect through sufferings.

63. 33:04

    It goes on or just reading on verse 11 for both. He that sanctifies, that’s Christ. Christ that sanctified to sanctify you means to set you apart and make you special for God, right very close to the word holy set apart. He that sets us apart and makes us holy. And they who are set apart and made holy are all of 1. One more.

64. 33:36

    You can say what you think it is because brethren disagree on it. All right? Not that it makes much difference. One what? They’re all of one anybody. One what? One God, one method, one Father, one. What do you reckon? It doesn’t say. So what do you reckon? What? Can’t hear you, Father. He likes father.

65. 34:03

    OK, That makes no difference across if there’s one Father and one God. Paul argues that early in Romans, because there’s one God, there’s one method. OK, there’s one method of the Jew, one method of the Gentile. Because there’s one God, there’s only one method of salvation and that’s the other thing to and understand the atonement.

66. 34:22

    There’s only one method from Adam to the end of Millennium, there’s only one method of salvation. There’s one God, one method. And because there’s one God and one method, therefore Jesus Christ, the sanctifier, the one who did the work so we could be special, set apart for God, He did that work. They’re all of one Father and one method. And therefore he’s not ashamed to call them brethren. And he quotes, quotes, I’ll declare thy name under my brethren.

67. 34:58

    And then in verse 13, I put my trust in him. He got salvation by faith. He put his trust. He got the same one methods faith, OK, He put his trust in God, OK, And behold, I am the children whom God have given me, OK, Behold, I am the children. We’re one family, OK, but we’re we’re together. We’re one and because we’re one and there’s one method. Well, Christ had to come with our problems with our nature and do something about delivering us. He’s the chief captain him and got it to get together and that’s why we’ve got Hebrews 214 for as much then, because there’s one method as the children are partakers of flesh and blood.

68. 35:45

    He also himself likewise, but took of the same, got himself in the same situation, right? That is as close as possible. That’s through death. He might destroy or render of none effect that which has the power of death, which is the devil or sin. OK, So what are made perfect through sufferings? The sufferings is actually just been flesh and blood and everything that goes with it.

69. 36:23

    Some of those sufferings are very nice temptations, but they’re they’re sufferings. They’re a trial. Some of them are terrible trials, pain and sickness and persecution and and so on. OK, but they’re all sufferings. He has a basic principle. We don’t all we’re not always experiencing awful sufferings OK, but he tunes us up with them. If you’re going through life without sufferings you’re going through life without being tuned right up to being sons and daughters the living God.

70. 37:01

    Look what I did for Jesus Christ, verse 17 Wherefore in all things that behave Christ to be made like unto his brethren, what to do for him? It made him a merciful and faithful high priest in things pertaining to God to make propitiation, not reconciliation to make propitiation for the sins of the people. For in that he himself hath suffered. Pick draw a line from suffered in the end of verse 10 up to the suffered in verse 18, right?

71. 37:37

    That’s the connection. For in that himself has suffered being tempted. Is that the suck of them that are tempted? OK, so that’s another basic principle of the gospel salvation. And that salvation is to be sons of the living God, to be bringing sons unto glory. You know, salvation’s not just saving us from death and giving us immortality.

72. 38:11

    Salvation is sharing God himself. He shares himself with us. It’s an awesome concept. He’s not given us a set of rules and says if you’re a good boy, I’m going to give you eternal life. That’s not the idea at all. He says, if you can take on board my moral values now within the limits of your capacity and use Christ as your captain, and you do that faithfully through the life and see forgiveness where you need it and grow in the image and likeness of me, I’m going to let you share what I am myself, my own glory. It’s an awesome concept.

73. 38:56

    Let’s dwell on Captain for a little bit. Here’s a little analogy. Here’s a mob of believers are in trouble. They’ve got enemies all around. There’s this path that goes to salvation. All right. There’s this path that goes to salvation. You see that, Russell? But anyway, all right. And there’s all sorts of enemies and there’s a great chasm here. And and these brethren here, you know, for 4000 years have not been able to cross that chasm.

74. 39:35

    And that chasm is temptation and death. They’ve never been able to beat it. And there’s only one method, there’s only one way to salvation, OK. And these fellows, they’re good fighters. And some of them, there’s Abraham and there’s Isaac and Jacob and Daniel. All right, fighting away the good fight of faith. They can’t get past that chasm. All right.

75. 40:04

    So God in the appointed way sends down a captain, and he lands amongst the fellows. This is just an analogy, OK? But soon as he hits the ground, well before he hits the ground almost there’s Herod shooting at him as he’s coming down, OK? He’s barely born, an arid was after him. The kings of the earth and the rulers take counsel together against the Lord’s anointed right from birth, didn’t they?

76. 40:34

    OK, this is the air. Come, let’s kill him. I mean, right from the word God, there were problems, OK, But the moment he came and he has and got into a position where his brethren were, whom he was their captain and leader, behold on the children and God had given me. The moment he’s there, he doesn’t save himself.

77. 40:57

    He’s not going to save anybody. He doesn’t save himself, He’s not going to save anybody. True or false, it’s true, and I’m not pushing that. Christ had to sacrifice because his nature separated him from God and therefore his nature had to be forgiven even though he hadn’t done any sins. I’m not teaching that at all. I’m teaching that He had to be a captain and he had come into their situation and he had to fight the fight of against the enemy of his own nature and the people round about him. He had to do it holding God’s hand and his job was to lead those people across this cavern because only he could build the bridge or whatever was required.

78. 41:57

    In literal fact, I suppose he’s the only one that could climb down the bottom and climb up the other side and then throw a rope over so the others could get over or build a bridge or whatever you like. He was the only one that had the engineering ability. He’s the only one with the ability to provide the way across that gap and then other rest of the boys could follow. But he must be successful.

79. 42:21

    He must never fall the sin, OK, He must save himself to save us. And you say, oh, well, he’s always talking about greater love of no man than this. And he lay down his life for his friends. If he had to save himself, what are you going on about? He had to save himself.

80. 42:44

    That takes the emphasis of the way from the fact that he that he that he came to save us. Well, that’s a simple answer to that. I have some handouts here. I think you’re arranging. Brethren have checked them out, have they? But but don’t hold that against them. They could be quite wrong, these handouts. It’s just they haven’t picked it up yet. OK, now on that point.

81. 43:34

    OK, what’s this emphasis on that He did it for us? Well, the whole point is that if we hadn’t got ourselves into this situation, we don’t know what God would require him to do. He might have gone another way and gone through his own special trials and everything. Well, they are having to go through this situation.

82. 44:00

    We don’t know he went this way because we were in trouble, OK? We just don’t know. And it’s not revealed what God would require to repair his son if we weren’t in that situation. That’s purely hypothetical anyway. It would never happen anyway any other way than that’s happened to anyone. It’s purely A hypothetical thing Brother Carter in the indie book says, and this doesn’t make it true, but it’s a suggestion. He talks about the difficulties on the atonement. He says another cause of difficulty arises out of the Lord’s relationship to His own death. A lot of people have a lot of trouble with that. OK.

83. 44:46

    It is affirmed in Scripture that by His own blood he entered in once into the holy place, having obtained eternal redemption. Hebrews 13, of course, and that God brought from the dead the great shepherd of the sheep through the blood of the everlasting covenant. So obviously Christ was raised and got personal salvation through his sacrifice.

84. 45:10

    OK, No problem. No, He’s the captain. And if he doesn’t get saved through his, through passing over that gap by the crucifixion he had to go through, He couldn’t save anybody else. He had to bridge that gap, OK, but it goes on to say he needed redemption. He needed salvation from death. The confusion arises when we isolate him from his work and his work was to come and take lead these fellows out. In so doing he would be made perfect for his suffering. He would learn obedience, he’d be become a merciful and faithful high priest.

85. 45:54

    He would be a captain of his people and that was his heritage anyway. OK, he says he was there to be our Saviour and but for our needs we may reverently say. He would not have been there. We may reverently say he would not have been there. He can’t prove that God doesn’t even talk about what God would have done if we weren’t there because it would never have happened anywhere rather than it happened. But if you’re going to think about it at all, don’t think the JJ Andrews style that irrespective of our position, if Christ came in the flesh and then he was separated from God just because he was flesh and blood and it needed a special sacrifice to reconcile just being flesh and blood, whether it’s sinned or not.

86. 46:50

    And before he’d get into salvation, therefore God would require of him all that he went through for his own personal salvation because he was separated from God because he was born with our nature, which is just rubbish. Oh, in my opinion, sorry. OK.

87. 47:17

    That’s just emphasizing we’re called the glory and what the glory is. The glory of God relates to His character and intelligence and a mental thing and a moral thing and a thing of His purpose, but also relates to His substance. When you’re talking about glory, you’re talking about those two things. Now Pete here, His glory is his brains and his good looks. None of the girls think much of it this days, but never mind. Let’s hope it went red.

88. 47:52

    OK, so, so our glory is our mental, mental prowess. And for the girls, their beauty and for the boys, their their masculinity. OK, OK, that’s your glory, your natural glory. God’s glory is his character and his great genius and everything, and He’s reveal his purpose and the way to end his immortal substance and this great omnipotent power that he can just radiate himself and become the whole universe. God’s everything, He’s everything. In Him we live and move and how we are being, and He’s not very far from every one of us.

89. 48:31

    It’s so literal. He is everything. OK? The only thing we own is personal volition, volition, free will to make a choice. That’s the only thing we own. Everything else is made from God and dependent upon God. All right, so when we’re called to the glory, right, we’re called to become the hope of the glory. In Romans chapter 5, the early verses in hope of the glory of God, it’s now in Genesis chapter 1, the Elohim and Yahweh himself got together and said, let us verse 26, isn’t it? I think of chapters chapter one, let us make man in our image and in our likeness.

90. 49:29

    All right. I mean, he’s going to have a family. That’s his purpose. So he and the angels get together and say, let us make man in our image and in our likeness. They had made all the other beasts of the field and birds of the air. They’d made all the other creatures. And then they said, let us make man in our image and likeness. So obviously man has something the other animals haven’t got. He’s also got a lot of what the other animals have got. Coming off a farm you realize, and I don’t want to be gruesome, but you’re forever killing animals for food or because they’re pests.

91. 50:13

    You slit them open and and you get to know what’s inside hearts and livers and all the stuff and. And. And you quickly realized that they’re common to man that that our Physiology is just animal Physiology. Yeah. Yeah. Bodies. OK. And even Adam and Eve, when they crowded, must have looked around and wild and watched all the animals function and began to realize they did an awful lot of things that they do too naturally than they had to do to live, to eat, drink and do all those sort of all the things that go on. They must have realized that to a large extent they were animal. And we are our Physiology as animals know about that. OK, But there’s a difference up in their heads. Other creatures are wonderful brains, OK. And when we look at the human brain, you know, the scientists tell us we’re looking at the most complex thing in the universe.

92. 51:18

    Of course they’re wrong. Yeah. There’s something far more complex in the universe than the mind of man, and that’s the mind of God, isn’t it? OK. But in other words, it’s a tough one. And they have been studying it for a long while and come up with all sorts of things, which I, I’ve got a bit of a hobby about, but I never at my age, I can’t remember the details. I can’t tell you much about it.

93. 51:42

    So, but it doesn’t matter. OK. So you’re not going to get a science, that’s for sure. And, and what we’ve got here is there’s, there’s not sections in your head in these sections here, all right. But these are some of the functions that go on that are very important. And, and we’re in, in some of it, we’re similar to animals and in some of it we’re quite different. And this is very challenging.

94. 52:14

    And it’s a pity I couldn’t put this up here for an hour. And we just talked about it. I’ll just describe what we’re looking at here is area here. There’s an area where consigned to consciousness, reasoning and making decisions now that run consciousness no problem. And and this racing around here is our clock rate. You know anything about clock rates? You know, computers go around and, and they tear around and, and, and as a as the pulse tears around, it picks up information from other parts of the computer and it clocks it in and it does this, then it does that make.

95. 53:00

    OK, we’re far more complex than that. But we have this clock, right? And some of us are far faster than others. Pete’s isn’t too fast and he’s he’s a bit slow. He’s on me. He’s on me. We’re both technicians. A bit slow. That’s all right. It’s not a crime. It’s just a misfortune.

96. 53:19

    Don’t worry, It’s sad. So there’s all these inputs, the things we say, the things we hear, the things we touch, the things we take, all the five senses, they’re all building up on there, contributing to our consciousness. OK, and, and along with the animals, we have lusts. We’ve got lust, the flesh, the eye and the pride of life.

97. 53:46

    The animals have all got that. If you’ve never been in a farm, you don’t realize that, but they have, they’ve even got the pride of life, believe it or not, they have. They can be very proud. And and there’s these things over here called emotions. And boy, the animals have got a lot of those too, but so has God.

98. 54:06

    God’s got anger. He hasn’t got fear. He can hate and he loves and he can be very jealous and he can be happy and he can be upset. But I’ll put them in human forms. And I ran a list on ran a list on those just in English about this long, you don’t realize having variations. There are anger, like at my age, one of the areas very low level of anger is irritability.

99. 54:42

    I get irritable very easy. Something to do with not enough energy to do what you want to do, I think, or something like that. There’s all these gradations of anger. There’s all these gradations of fear. Yeah. I’ve been lying all day trying to rest so I could. It’s usually up here. It’s that hot.

100. 54:59

     I can’t speak this time of year, but we’re God blessed. And that we’ve got to suddenly, oh, goodness knows what I’d be doing right now, OK, Lying there all day, you know, it’s like before you got to speak. You just can’t take your mind off it. And I’m trying to have a little bit of a sleep so I’ll be fresh. And now your mind’s going all the time. And this subject matter, we’ve got to go. What is it?

101. 55:18

     Anxiety. It’s fear, just it’s not very strong fear. It’s fear, OK. And there’s all those sort of things and and this time we ought to think a lot about you realize that emotions and the brethren don’t talk about them because the churches are all built on a nationalism and therefore we’ve dropped the subject to law. And it’s, it’s a difficult subject to handle, balanced. And therefore we must be very careful. We must not ignore, we are ignoring it as a body. We are ignoring it and we’ve got to think more about our emotions in our family life, in our husband relations, kids emotions can get switched on like like irritability forever. I can, you know, I can get switched on by hormonal differences, lack of sleep, overwork, all sorts of things. Just switch on these emotional feelings, OK, and and and fear is, is such a subconscious thing. I can and destroy some people and and these things and we could love really means to like something really good, OK, Whereas agape love over here under moral faculties is a different sort of love.

102. 56:46

     It’s it’s the love of doing what’s right. It’s the love of in principle, even if you don’t like the person, you’ll do what’s right to all, and that’s agape love. You may. And God says we’ve got to use both. We’ve got to have both. We’ve got to have filial the brethren. We’ve got to agape our enemies, OK, We’ve got to agape God.

103. 57:09

     We’ve got their places in the ultimate. It’s just all under one word for love and you just got to sort it out. Or everything from erotic love to the love of God. So much for words and that’s putting inputs into our decisions. And when we make decisions that sends up reactions into there, OK, We make a decision to buy something, you know, sooner done it then then you get this feeling, oh, now I haven’t got the money. You know, all these things are going on millions of things all the time, OK.

104. 57:47

     And and over here we’ve got memory, OK. And and that is really to large extent you everything you do, everything you say, not everything is remembered, actually filled those things out. They reckon you’d go mad if you remembered every footstep you took and everything. OK, But our memory becomes ourselves. If you don’t think memory is yourself, then you come up to Maranatha and I’ll take you around to some poor all sisters that have are quite right in every other area but they live in the eternal present.

105. 58:21

     I can’t even remember 5 minutes ago. You tell them the name, you tell. You tell Norma that she taught all our kids at Sunday school and she said what’s your name David? And she looks in your eyes and says yes it’s your eyes Dave. And then I walk over and come back 2 minutes later and you go through all that again. It’s sad.

106. 58:41

     Once you lost your memory, you lost you. So memory is a very important thing, and all the things you do, your whole history, good and bad, are written there, and they contribute continually to your decisions and your reasoning. OK, that’s very important. That in your memory is a lot of good things, divine things. You can call on an accumulation of understanding and attitudes and values and experiences, good and bad, that you can call on. Learn by your mistakes.

107. 59:17

     You know, they’re very important part of us. All right. Animals have a memory, but they’re quite limited. It’s amazing how some will remember some things. You can always get a ball of high, put on the back of the truck and and walk, drive down the cast and then drive up toward the the cattle yards.

108. 59:41

     They followed every time go into the courtyard and they get locked in and they will get a needle. Three months later it happens again. OK, but there’s other things I remember. They don’t forget that they haven’t got a complete memory. Well, it’s complete. It’s ours for sure. OK. The main thing in the image and likeness of God is these amazing bundle of potentialities.

109. 1:00:09

     Here I won’t put a few. When you start going those, you get a great long list too, OK. They are divine, like moral faculties. Adam was created with them, but they weren’t developed. But the potential was there. He had the potential to appreciate justice and mercy and faith, hope and agape love, loyalty, duty and caringness and gratitude and awe. And it goes on and on, OK, all these divine like qualities, but they have to be programmed properly. That is, they’ve got to be educated. It’s a highly complex thing.

110. 1:00:54

     And they have to be oriented properly. And the mind is so complex. You know, in medicine they have about an 80 to 90% success rate in most surgery and, and, and sicknesses these days. All right. But in the psychological areas, the parole psychiatrists now, they get about a 5% success rate. It’s that complex. It’s extremely complex and and they’re getting by more on drugs now than than psychoanalysis, 5 minutes more on drugs than psychoanalysis.

111. 1:01:29

     The point is everyone’s got these and they vary in individuals. Some men it says we read in the Psalm the other day. I don’t know which Psalm one of you remember, but the wicked are such from the womb and the day they’re born they’re wicked. That seems to imply some people are very limited in these areas and it varies from person to person. The same as their speed here Peter and IA bit slow. Other people would be great everything and some people are very strong in this.

112. 1:02:05

     Some are are very weak in this summer, you know what I mean, But they’re all got it and they vary And some people are quite low on some of these emotions and some have got really short fuses, you know, and the anger area, you know, and, and you know what the girls are liking Do the same thing each day, but it comes certain days you’ve done the same thing, but you’re in big trouble. Thinks I’m going to get into trouble when I get home and I and the The thing is there’s only one who could educate you and give you the necessary experiences and the necessary information to program this thing here because this area here all right should rule It should be the key. It should rule out all the IT should rule. Ideally, your image and likeness of God should rule over your animal passions.

113. 1:03:11

     That’s the first step. They should. But we know with the fall of Adam, all right, the rulership got shifted to here to a large extent, dinner, all right, the passions became inflamed and they tended to rule. And that varies from individual to individual. So we’ve got 5 minutes, the beast, the the tempter, it says it said, it said let’s make man in our image and likeness and I’ll leave that one up from time to time when I come and study it and think about it. You just got to take that and board yourself. All the input output and how your mind thinks. Had a young father the other night looking at it. He spent two hours discussing and every time we’d take a particular incident and what went on, this happened and then that happened and we’d always get lost. It was too complex to decide which was acting and reacting on what.

114. 1:04:11

     The mind’s too complex. Our own mind’s too complex. Even though we’ve got to self examine ourselves. We can only go so far. We can only go so far. OK, I’m going to have to finish on these. You’ve got First Kings chapter 8, 3839.

115. 1:04:44

     This is the dedication of the temple. First Kings chapter 8, verse 38 and 39. This is Solomon praying to God about the temple. The temple’s the type of Christ. Of course, verse 38, What prayer and supplication so ever be made by any man, or by all thy people? Israel, which shall know every man, The plague of his own heart Is your heart the plague of your own heart? Not particularly here and here and here are your heart, OK? The plague of your own heart, the problems in your own mind, OK.

116. 1:05:24

     And he spreads forth his hands toward this house. Then here, there in heaven thy dwelling place, and forgive, and do, and give to every man, according to his ways, whose heart thou knowest. Then note this, for thou even thou only knowest the hearts of all the children of men.

117. 1:05:52

     And you know there’s Jeremiah 17. The heart is deceitful above all things. Who can know it? I, Yahweh, try the reigns of the heart. Only He understands what’s really going on here in His fullness. Only He can program it, educate it. There’s nothing more wonderful than education. People are looking for gifts for the Holy Spirit.

118. 1:06:16

     They want a physical experience. There’s nothing more wonderful than God communicating His own mind to your mind. There can’t be anything more wonderful than that. The scriptures are called the Holy Spirit in the dead Testament talk about the love of God spreading your broaden your heart by the Holy Spirit. What’s it mean?

119. 1:06:36

     The Holy Spirit’s teaching of the mind of Christ and God’s wants me. There’s nothing more powerful. You can’t take on board anything more powerful than life.

120. 1:06:50

     It just can’t be done. The problem is you can’t physically feel it. The problem is that used to be education. You think, oh, it’s just education, it’s just learning. It’s a miraculous thing. It’s a thing we don’t even stand for a baby’s born, born with a big head, born to be taught. And so we have it in Hebrews.

121. 1:07:13

     All things are naked and open under the you know, the word of God is quick and powerful. Now dividing us on the soul and the spirit. The bone and marrow gets right in analysis the whole mind OK. And all things are open under the eyes of him with whom we have to do.

122. 1:07:32

     That’s Hebrews 412 and 30. That’s a bad translation. With whom we have to do it should be rendered to whom we shall give account. God only can analyse a human mindfully. Christ learnt that ability, but he was given the power to read people’s minds and the ability to do it. He’s the only man.

123. 1:07:52

     Sometimes we can read what people are thinking to a limited degree, but no man knows the spirit of a man except the spirit of a man himself really. And even there he said Paul said Paul said when the Corinthians I’m finishing when Paul said when Paul said the Corinthians accused have not been a faithful stupid, not giving him enough of the deep things of the word.

124. 1:08:13

     He said, I think it’s a very small thing that I should be judged as you of any man’s judgement. He said I don’t know anything against myself about being a faithful steward to you. I think I’ve been a faithful steward, but I’m not thereby justify judge nothing before the time he says God will bring to light the hidden things of darkness and then will the councils of the heart be made now and every man will receive his proper reward.

125. 1:08:43

     Only the judgement seat will fully expose us, right? Only God in Christ can do that. OK, so so one of the great principles. What’s that got to do? The atonement. The atonement is one of the great principles. The atonement is we lack full discernment about ourselves. We don’t fully understand how sinful we are, and we don’t fully understand all about righteousness, God’s holy ways. We don’t.

126. 1:09:16

     One man did. We don’t. We’ve got to grow in it. And the more you grow in it, the more you realize you don’t know at all. And the atonement is about recognizing the potential, but also your limitations. That’s part of the confession. We’ll leave it at that.