343: Ben Brinkerhoff - In Search of Conscience

Automatically transcribed. Accuracy is good but not perfect, and words are sometimes wrong. Trust the audio over the text.

1. 0:13

   Welcome to good Chris selfie and talks. I’m Levi. I’m Chris, I’m Jason, and I’m Brian. Thank you for joining us this week. On this podcast, we select one talk a week to help us get the Bible in our Daily News feed. Each week we post a talk that we previewed from suggestions sent in by listeners from around the world.

2. 0:30

   Then we record a short intro beforehand as a personalized recommendation to you on why we are sharing the talk. And now? Let’s talk more about this week’s talk. Hi, this is Levi. This week’s class is the third in a series that Brother Ben Brinkerhoff presented at Christchurch West in New Zealand. The title of the series is called In Search of Consciousness.

3. 1:04

   I don’t actually have a name for the individual class. This was suggested by someone who listened to the class and I very much enjoyed it. I think it should be clear that I do have a bias to brother Ben growing up a couple years behind him here in Los Angeles, and also I think a bias to the topic. Romans 14 is a part of Scripture that I think is very challenging and hard to figure out how to apply and when to apply in ecclesial life.

4. 1:35

   And Ben has clearly struggled with that as well. And I think this class does a very good job of establishing some important kind of ground rules or parameters on how to apply. You know, when you know when someone’s conscience should overrule maybe the conscience or allowance of another’s. I also just enjoyed the tenor that brother Ben has in this class.

5. 1:59

   I feel like I say this in almost every introduction I do it just I’m for the podcast specifically, I’m usually looking for someone who were clearly listening to them talking about something they passionately care about or have been going through. I mean, I think you can tell in in in brother Ben’s voice in this class that he has a lot of stories that he’s not sharing a lot of experience that he’s not diving into in this class, which I think makes it an easy listen and makes it, you know, encouraging in that way, very accessible. But also, you know, it made me look at a lot of the principles he he has been saying in a different way. I mean, I think at the core, his really core messages, you should not discuss, you know, any matters of conscience with any brother or sister who may also be unclear on whether or not you love them, which I think is a really powerful message. You know, do does that does the person that you’re talking to know you know, undisputedly that you love them or not? That’s what I took from it.

6. 3:02

   He was really excited to share it. Thank you again to the brother who sent it on. And also I made a choice to keep the Q&A portion that they had time for at the end of the class. So but you don’t hear the questions. So you can obviously you can turn the podcast off when it switches to the Q&A or listen to it because I do think that it was worth including Ben make some good clarifications and has a lot more good stuff to say in that Q&A section.

7. 3:33

   So here is Ben Bringerhoff in search of consciousness. Well. Brothers, Sisters in this study is where that’s much better. I think off was the right, right choice there. This is the study where I think things get a little bit challenging.

8. 3:56

   See, it’s, it’s one thing for us to look at conscience in relation to, OK, it’s one thing for us to look at conscience relative to the principles of God, the commands of God, They’re difficult to follow. We all agree they’re difficult to follow. I’ll, I’ll struggle with that. My ego will definitely struggle with that.

9. 4:24

   But at least we can say it’s written down in Scripture and we have a consistent standard we can try to aim for in the example of the Lord Jesus Christ. But. How? How do? I live without giving offense to you, as we just read in Romans 14.

10. 4:42

    How do I do with that? You know when I was in Israel? There is a kind of a joke that went around because I don’t know if you know this about Israelis, but they argue a lot. And the joke went something along the lines of if you have two Jews, you have three opinions.

11. 5:08

    Now I think this is true of Christadelphians. You have two views. You have two Christadelphians, you have three opinions. Listen, in Christchurch, it’s probably 4 opinions, right? So, so you know, in this room will be people that have opinions, that have views. That are totally at. Contrast with one another. And you will each be fully persuaded perhaps.

12. 5:37

    Of your particular view that you’ll think that your view on whatever matter that that it is, is the right one. And you’ll have your reasons. You’ll have your scriptural. Arguments and and in more than a few cases I I think your heart will probably be bound up in it and others disagree with you.

13. 5:57

    You might think for not very good reason, and perhaps we can each have those disagreements. In a way where we just sort of agree to disagree and we have peace about that. But what if you exercising your conscience bothers me?

14. 6:12

    What if it offends me? What if it hurts me or I perceive that it’s hurting my children? What do I do then? We may try to work it out. But we’ll probably find that’s not too easy. And the real trouble is that we have both a difference in our understanding of principle and application.

15. 6:33

    You ask yourself, well, how could we have disagreements in terms of principles? Well, principles can be in conflict with one another. Anyone who’s ever now this never happens in my household, but anyone who’s ever had someone, their wife asked them, hey, do I look fat in this dress right now? You’ll recognize upon just that simple question that there might be a few principles to apply to that particular answer, right? With with me, it’d be more like, do you enjoy the meatloaf? But I mean.

16. 7:07

    Honestly, right there could be. There could be many. On on these simple questions of life, there can be more than one principle that gets applied to these sorts of things, and you’ll have your life experience. Some of it painful, some of it’s scarring. And it will. Emphasize to you the wisdom of certain principles or the other, diminishing some, emphasizing others, and as a result, our view on application may be different. And I could eat, or I could wear, or I could drink or I could sing.

17. 7:45

    Something of not only those categories, but just picking ones that are common issues. That offends you, and we all both have our Bible verses and we’ll be at loggerheads with one another. And guess what happens? Next. I’ll tell you what, I start to find you annoying. That’s what happens next.

18. 8:10

    And on the flip side, you probably find me annoying and think I’m leading others astray, or that I’m not a good example of leaving, of living the truth. And and then what we start to do is make assumptions about each other. And I’m going to make assumptions. I’m going to start watching you like a hawk is what I’m going to start doing. I’m going to find any contradiction in your life of. Any of the.

19. 8:31

    Principles that you pretend or portend to have. And when I find them, I’m going to write them down in a book so I don’t forget them, so I can meditate on them. And I’m going to look at all. These all these evidences I’m finding. Against you. And I’m going to believe all these assumptions I’m making about you without ever talking to you about it, by the way, as if they’re ironclad proof. In fact, I might even share them with someone else just to just so I know that what I’m saying is not just a figment of my imagination.

20. 9:06

    And, and, and, and in some ways we, we start to work on the idea that there could be a potential run in I very good some allies here. Now, I hope you don’t relate to any of this. And, and perhaps that was an extreme case I just pointed out, but it’s happened. Any of us who’ve been in the truth long enough would know this kind of thing happens, doesn’t it?

21. 9:31

    Sadly. So if it can happen today, here’s a question. For you, how do you think the Jew and Gentile found things in the 1st century ecclesia? A little bit stressful, perhaps you think they’d run into problems like I’ve just described. The Jew and Gentile in the 1st century ecclesia living in Rome? Absolutely. Now, how do we apply conscience in cases such as these? In cases where.

22. 10:07

    I think there’s a right answer. You probably don’t care for my answer. There might not be a right answer, in particularly because it may not be an issue of commandment, but an issue of interpretation or application, and where inevitably, those two things are going to be infused with opinion. How does contents apply to disagreements between brethren where we can easily be offended and offend one another, and perhaps more particularly?

23. 10:42

    Where does Scripture provide a set of principles to work? From to deal with issues like these. So this is a little bit where we’re going to be talking about the next two studies. Are you interested? All right, would you like to talk about this? All right, let’s just talk about it then. That’s what this class is going to be about.

24. 10:58

    I’m sure this is going to be 1 where I get lots of questions at the end and and. Please be gentle with me. Scripture. Does give us some guidance here, but the difficulty is to know how to apply it. There are two main sections of scripture as you might be aware of apply to issues such as these.

25. 11:18

    The 1st is in First Corinthians chapter 8 through 10 which is one of application, and the other being Romans 14 which is one of principle. They both have principle and application, but I would say 1 tends to the application and one tends more to the principle. The object of this class then is to understand the real source of the problem.

26. 11:40

    So that’s what you have to hold me to account to at the end of the class. Did we understand? The real problem, not the surface problem, the real problem. OK, that’s what I want to come back at the end. If you haven’t gotten that, then I’ve this class hasn’t been a success.

27. 12:00

    OK, the object of the next class is to understand how Paul provides a process for dealing with the problem. The object of the 5th class is to see how the weak could lead to division in the ecclesia by the application of their weak conscience. And the object of the 6th class is to see how the strong could lead to a division of the ecclesia by the application of their strong conscience.

28. 12:31

    So I’m going to put forward to you that both the weak and the strong can divide the ecclesia and did in the 1st century. And we’re going to look at examples of both to see in the extremity what the problem was with both of those applications of conscience that were misinformed, misguided, and ultimately sinful. OK.

29. 12:55

    So that’s that’s where we’re headed with the study. And if you want to hear the 7th. Class, you can go to North for an extortation in May. All right, so that’s up to you, right? OK, so with that outline and introduction, let’s start this consideration of Romans 14, which was our introductory reading.

30. 13:14

    And here we see Paul is dealing with differences in the ecclesia where the ecclesial members had incompatible views. On a cursory level, you can see that the the issues themselves have to do with cultural differences between Jews and Gentiles, right? So let’s just take a look at those together. Romans chapter 14. Now the first is in Romans chapter 14 verse 2, which is differences regarding what we eat.

31. 13:45

    We read there for one believes he may eat all things. Another who is weak eateth herbs. Follow OK differences regarding. What we eat. The second difference? Is in regarding the observance of holy days. We read this in verse five. One man esteemeth one day above another, another esteemeth every day alike. Let every man be fully persuaded in his own mind. OK, so differences regarding the observance of holy days and the last which is little bit more painful for me is regarding the drinking of wine.

32. 14:25

    Romans chapter 14, verse 21. It is good neither to eat flesh nor to drink wine, nor anything whereby thy brother stumble with or is offended or is weak. Now we would I think we’d be foolish to think these were the only three differences. I think these differences are emblematic of the. Overall plethora of cultural. Differences going on in that ecclesia between those with Jewish heritage and those with Gentile heritage. OK.

33. 14:56

    In fact, we know that that the Jew Gentile struggle is is is at the heart of this and we know that there is some pretty strong language being used because Paul is going to use the really loaded term. What’s the loaded? Term that a Jew would give. A Gentile regarding their their way of life, that loaded term would be the word unclean.

34. 15:23

    And Paul uses that word unclean in Romans chapter 14 verse 14, where Paul says I know and I’m persuaded by the Lord Jesus. There’s nothing unclean of itself to him, but to him who esteemeth anything to be unclean to him it us is unclean. And you know for sure that that is a very much a word taken from the context. Of the Law of Moses.

35. 15:50

    OK, so Paul does not use, as you’re aware, as we read the chapter, he doesn’t use the word Jew in Gentile Romans 14. He’s instead uses these term weak and strong. And we have to understand what he means by those terms, right? So let’s let’s just define that because having that really clear in our mind will kind of make the text a little bit easier to follow and understand as we go through it together.

36. 16:14

    So who are the weak and who are the strong? Well, the weak were those who took who For whom it took only a mild or a weak stimulus for them to be concerned or offended. It only took a weak stimulus. They’re very sensitive. Only a weak stimulus would make them feel offended. Paul would say. They are weak in faith because, Paul would say, faith itself gives you an ability to wish to not be as easily offended. OK, they are probably, and almost, well, almost definitely referring to the Jews or those with Jewish heritage in Romans 14.

37. 16:58

    The strong, by contrast, are those for which it took a strong stimulus for them to feel that they were concerned or offended over a matter. Paul would say that they are strong because they are strong in faith, and faith is given the ability to to withstand the idea of feeling offended. Paul would say he was strong in faith.

38. 17:19

    This is why he can. He can. When he’s amongst Jews, he can act like. A Jew, when he’s among Gentiles, he can dress like a Gentile. Because he is strong in faith, Paul would say so. The strong are those for which it takes a strong stimulus for them to be concerned or offended.

39. 17:34

    But in this chapter we could, we should consider the strong when we see the term as generally speaking about the Gentiles. OK, hopefully that clears up those terms, but I can understand why those terms are themselves a little bit confusing. So Paul’s. Admonition as the chapter begins in verse one of the RSV is this, he says. As.

40. 18:02

    For the man who is weak in faith, welcome him. But for not. Not for disputes over opinions. I think the King James has doubtful disputations, but I think the RSV really does a good job of translating this. Doubtful disputations are really disputes about opinions.

41. 18:25

    So what Paul’s doing here right away by. The way as you can see right away. Who is he? Addressing in Romans 14, he’s actually addressing the strong. He’s saying to the strong in the ecclesia. I want you to welcome. The weak but don’t welcome them just so you can argue about your different opinions. And the first question that arises when you start to unpack this a little bit.

42. 18:56

    Is what is a conscience issue anyway ever had that question and and and we can disagree that something even is a conscience issue. We we. The term throw is thrown about so and so as a conscience. About this issue. So and so as another conscience, a different conscience about a particular issue. Well, what makes something an issue of conscience?

43. 19:26

    This is my idea about this. I don’t, I can’t give you an ironclad definition, but I think this is a good working definition For something to be an issue of conscience where the verses of Romans 14, the application of First Corinthians chapters 8-9 and ten are applicable, it must be a matter over which we do not have a command from the Lord.

44. 19:53

    In other words, Romans 14 verse one, it’s got to be about an opinion. Perhaps the best example of this is in Corinth. See, there is a conscience issue in Corinth about eating meat that had been sacrificed to an idol for some. Understandably, the association of doing anything that was connected to an idol was unacceptable. Those that felt it was unacceptable were weak in faith in that respect.

45. 20:29

    And because they are weak in faith, they wanted rules. A rule that said we do not eat it, it’s a rule. But others felt that meat is just meat. The belly is made for meat. Obviously it can digest it. If God gave me a belly to digest it, God must be happy with it.

46. 20:47

    The belly for meats and meats for the belly, as it were. They were strong in faith regarding. This and embrace liberty. To them, idols were nothing. Eating meat offered to an idol is like eating meat offered to a block of stone, as long as it was eating with Thanksgiving. What’s the problem? So both.

47. 21:08

    Opinions had some validity, but on the issue there wasn’t a specific command because the Lord had declared all foods clean, all foods clean, period. So while eating meat was an issue of conscience. What was not a conscience issue would be a question worth asking. Well, what isn’t a conscience issue? Well, do you know what? Isn’t a conscience issue

48. 21:40

    idolatry? Worshipping a false God? Guess what? That’s not a conscience issue. Do you know what else is not a conscience issue? Adultery. Sleeping with a temple prostitute as a part of a ritual meal was not a conscience. Issue that was a. Sin and and it’s not for no reason whatsoever that we read in First Corinthians chapter 6.

49. 22:10

    Verses 15 to 16 and verse 18 these. Words know ye not? That your bodies are the members of Christ. Shall I take? The members of Christ. And make them the members of a harlot. God forbid what know ye not? That. He which is joined to in harlot is 1 body for two saith he shall be 1 flesh flee fornication every sin. That a man doeth is without the body, but he that commits fornication sinneth against his own body. So, stating the obvious here, Paul does not consider that fornicating with temple harlots or any variety of harlot, I suppose.

50. 22:57

    Which was clearly an issue that had to be covered in Corin. He doesn’t think that’s a conscience issue. That’s very unambiguously a sin. Now I use that for its obviousness, but I also use that for the relevance of the context of what’s happening in First Corinthians.

51. 23:18

    So I, I like how one brother put it. He sort of divided the world into three boxes. Now I, I got you want to want a little hint? Sisters, men like boxes. The fewer the boxes, the better. Really. And so in this example there’s only three boxes. Box number one is the things we are commanded not to do. Now this.

52. 23:46

    Is very hard to see, but that is a black box black, right? Things we’re commanded not to do. So is everyone OK if I put idolatry and adultery in that particular? Box. We’re all happy with that, OK? We’re commanded not to do those things. Those things are clearly sin. OK, well on the other end is a white.

53. 24:12

    Box well these. Are the things we’re commanded to do? Would everyone be OK if, if I put things like caring for the poor, loving our neighbor, loving the Lord our God with our heart, soul, mind and strength, honoring our father and mother? Would you be OK if I put those sort of things in this box over here?

54. 24:36

    We all agree that those are things we’re commanded to do. And if we’re honoring our father and mother, then we’re, we’re probably doing something in the white box. But you know. What the trouble? Is the trouble is the third box? Right. And the third. Box is things we are neither commanded nor not commanded to do.

55. 24:58

    But for which we use things in the black box or in the white box to imply. What we should do? All right. For example, should I have for lunch a peanut butter or a ham sandwich? Now for a Jew. By the way, that’s not in the middle. Box right, right. But it is for me because all foods are clean.

56. 25:26

    Or should I? Buy Hyundai or Jaguar. Now you might think that buying a Jaguar is definitely in the black box. What a waste of money could be given to the poor. But what you’re doing is you’re saying, hey, giving the pores in the white box, buying the Jaguar means money not for the poor. I’m using a white box issue to make a Gray box decision. There’s no command about that.

57. 25:54

    Nothing makes a Hyundai. Holy, by the way. Like if anyone’s driven my white band, they’ll know that for a certainty, right? It is. It’s in the Gray box now. Most things we do I suggest are in the Gray box. Taking an action, not taking an action, Doing, not doing, saying, not saying, eating, not eating, drinking, not drinking, observing, not observing, wearing, not wearing, singing, not singing.

58. 26:25

    Most of those things are found in the middle section. There the middle box, I can’t point to a single command to know exactly how to act. The action may be acceptable, maybe it’s not acceptable. It depends on context. I could definitely suggest to you that that someone buying a a really expensive car could be fine or could really not be fine, and context might dictate the wisdom of that, but it’s not just. Me thinking that or saying that context is important for things in the middle.

59. 27:02

    Box I think. That is explicitly what Scripture tells us, and that is the application of conscience issues that Paul tells us in First Corinthians. Now let me give you some some evidence for that. Why would I say context is so important with conscience issues in understanding the wisdom of what you’re doing? So for example. Turn with me if you want.

60. 27:28

    I think you might want to even mark this in your Bibles. Up to you really. First Corinthians chapter 10, verses 25 to 28. I’ll also put it on the screen.

61. 27:40

    In this case, what I’m I’m going to point out is we’re going to talk about eating meats offered to idols and in one example, eating meat offered to idols. Is going to be perfectly acceptable. And the second example, eating meat offered to idols is not OK whatsoever. But you know what’s not different between those two examples? Is the meat hasn’t changed.

62. 28:10

    Look, let’s take a look at this. First Corinthians chapter 10, verses 25 to 28. Who’s whatsoever we’re told is sold in the shambles, that being meat that’s sold in the shambles that eat, asking no question for conscience sake, For the earth is the Lord’s and the fullness thereof. If any of them that believe not, bid you to a feast, and ye be.

63. 28:37

    Deposed to go. Whatsoever is set before you eat, asking no question for conscience sake, but if any man saying to you, hey this is offered unto idols. You don’t worship idols, do you? I added that last bit. Eat not for his sake that showed it, and for conscience sake. For the earth is the Lord. ‘S and the fullness.

64. 29:07

    Thorough of how do I make sense of this, right? Is it OK to eat meat offered idols? What we want is a black box or white box decision. Is it in the black box? Is it in the white box? That’s what I want, right? Paul says, well, it’s a neither box, unfortunately. If if the meats put in front of you and no one makes an issue of it and you’d be disposed to to eat it, go ahead. There’s nothing wrong.

65. 29:42

    Why is there nothing wrong? Paul says. Well. Paul very conveniently quotes a verse. Ever had someone with a conscience issue with a verse? Any ever had someone with a conscience issue that has a verse? No, no, I’m sure you haven’t. Right. Well, Paul says. I’ll give you a verse. Great, Paul says. Oh, all the earth is the Lord, See. I can eat that meat.

66. 30:06

    You know why I can eat that meat? Because that came from the rump of a cow. Well, if it was good meat, it came from the. Rump of a cow. And you know what? That cow is the Lord’s, because all of the earth is the Lord’s. The cow that was sacrificed to an idol that is still the Lord’s. Cow.

67. 30:25

    He made it. He gave it life. All of the earth is the Lord’s. It’s the Lord’s cow, no matter. Who killed it? No matter where it came from. Paul says the verse. Tells me it. Great. What a great first. Paul says look at that, look at that. Conscience issue. I got a verse.

68. 30:50

    Isn’t it? If it wasn’t so serious, you’d. Laugh, isn’t it? Because you know what Paul does, right? Like I’m setting this up right? So he says, well, I love it. If someone tells you a sacrifice of idols, he’s like, don’t eat it. But Paul’s like, wait, wait, wait, wait. I’m going to give you a verse and Paul’s like, you’re like, oh, good. What’s the contradictory verse to the verse you used last time? Paul’s like, oh, I got, I got a verse for you. Oh, it’s it’s here.

69. 31:20

    This the Lords and the fullness thereof. Paul’s like, it’s the same verse, but I thought my verse proved my point. It’s my verse. Don’t touch my verse. Don’t touch my verse.

70. 31:38

    But the issue is that Paul’s like, oh, but this time if the earth is the Lord’s yet, But you know what else is the Lord’s?

71. 31:48

    The fullness is the Lord’s. And do you know what the fullness of the Lord is? It’s you. You’re the fullness of the Lords and there’s just no mixing the Lord with an idol. Same verse.

72. 32:17

    So do you appreciate? What I’m saying? What about context here? About the middle box, is it wise or is it unwise? Maybe a better way of thinking than is it right or is it not right? Listen, the black and white boxes are a little bit right or not right. No one hears arguing that idolatry is OK. That’s.

73. 32:39

    Black box, right? And the middle box, is it wise or is it not wise? Well, how am I supposed to know that without context? Let me let me give you another example. Is drinking wine, OK? Because that came up in Romans 14. Drinking wine. Is drinking wine. OK? Well, I happen to really like wine. And if you want to, if you, I don’t think you care, but Californian red wine would be my favorite. And of those, Zinfandel.

74. 33:13

    And if you don’t know the difference. We should talk. Now. I enjoy red wine. My wife, for reasons specific to her, won’t touch red wine or any wine at all, really. Well, I could say that the Lord drank wine. I could say that that Paul said to Timothy, I have a little bit of wine for thy stomach’s sake. OK, That’s that’s all true.

75. 33:44

    So should we serve wine at the potluck? Anyone. Anyone for serving wine of the potluck, Right. I mean, you say that, but you can’t. Isn’t this amazing what artists can do? He’s clearly drunk. Like the artists are amazing. And how they can look at this, this eye is slightly out of is not focusing properly.

76. 34:11

    I really think that’s clever how an artist can do that. Right. But we all know in in First Corinthians Chapter 11 that Paul had said that some at the memorial meeting were drunk and some were hungry. So why that? It sounds comical to us? Maybe it wasn’t as comical in corn.

77. 34:33

    You see, that’s another context. Wine is neither OK or not OK. But the context matters, doesn’t it? Another issue that comes up a lot of time is dress. Is casual dress OK? Well, I love to dress casually. I grew up in Southern California, right? This day, like today would be like, our coldest day of the year, right? I mean, it’s generally hot.

78. 35:05

    I would never. Wear sweater like this in California. Hardly ever, right? I’d buy one just to just to say that I had one. I had a sweater. See. Look, I had a sweater. Right. You know, and occasionally if I had to go to Canada to give a talk, I’d have my sweater, right?

79. 35:18

    But I just you just you know, what I want to do in California is wear shorts and T-shirts all year long. I basically wear shorts and T-shirts my entire high school career here. You wear these beautiful uniforms. It’s Muffy everyday in. California, it’s just how it’s just how the. Culture of it goes there. OK so I like dressing casually.

80. 35:42

    Is it OK to dress casually at a wedding? Well, that’s a context, isn’t it? Right now, even in the Lord Jesus day, we know from the parable that that not wearing certain garments at a wedding, failing to put on what is called a wedding garment was an offense

81. 36:11

    even in Christ Day because perhaps the gravity of the situation suggested a certain type of clothing. Now, by the way, I’m not making a case about clothing per SE. What I’m saying is context mattered even in the Lord Jesus Christ day that wearing certain clothings in certain contexts created an offense to the master of the of the ceremony.

82. 36:40

    And so, you know, we’re told that. This this, this, this man who didn’t wear the wedding garment, he was cast out. Friend, how did you even come in? Here is what the master of the ceremony says to the man not wearing the wedding garment. Now Jesus wasn’t making a point about clothing. It’s just we can observe this parable to say it was obvious that Jesus hearers, you wouldn’t come to a wedding without a wedding garment because the context suggested.

83. 37:13

    That to not do that would give an offense. Do you see what I’m saying about contexts here? About the middle box, about the Gray box? Is it wise? Is it unwise? Not necessarily. Is it right or wrong? And the Gray box is the issue of the offense. I don’t really care whether someone is or is not offended by something like idolatry or worshipping a false God.

84. 37:38

    It’s wrong. Offense has nothing to do with this. But in the Gray. Box. Apparently offense matters, and this was an offense. What about the issue in Corinth? You see in Corinth a weak brother, maybe someone who even recently came into the truth, who had left the world of idolatry behind, that just come into the truth.

85. 38:11

    They might look at a brother in the ecclesia marching up into the hill to go to the temple to buy some meat offered to the to a false God. And, and if and if they saw that brother they respected going up and doing that, maybe, maybe. They follow their example and at the top of that hill they were prostitutes, lots of them. It was a very dangerous place to go buy meat. I mean, context here is important. We’re not really talking about whether or not someone worships a false God.

86. 38:47

    Clearly that’s wrong. We’re we’re talking about is his buying meat. What’s the context there? Well, let me take you to to one of the first ancient geographers. Geographer is someone who studies cities and the geography and the demographics of those cities. Right, one of the first. Geographers ever was a man named Strabo.

87. 39:13

    I don’t know if you’ve heard of him, but he wrote around the time of Julius Caesar and he wrote about many places in the Roman Empire at that time. But amongst the cities that Strabo. Wrote. About was Corinth, and this is what Strabo has to say about Corinth, and it’s useful because it’s good context, Strabo said.

88. 39:36

    The Temple of Aphrodite. In Corinth, in the days of the tyrant, Calypsos was so rich that it owned more than 1000 temple slaves. Courtesans, both men and women, had dedicated to the goddess, and therefore it was on account of these women that the city was. Crowded with people and grew rich, for instance, the ship captains freely squandered their money.

89. 40:10

    And hence the proverb Not for every man is a voyage to Corinth. Now Corinth being so closely associated with harlotry led to two different ancient Greek phrases. 1 was the term Corinthia Zomai. Corinthia zomai is roughly translated. I act like a Corinthian. And when that term was used, as it was used by the playwright Aristophanes, it was a reference to sexual immorality. To act like a Corinthian was sufficient as a say, you’re sexually immoral.

90. 40:53

    I don’t have to explain what it means. It’s so obvious what acting like a Corinthian is all about. Aristophanes just throws out the phrase in his in his plays. The second phrase was used by the philosopher Plato. Now Plato, as you know, was talking about in his book on the Republic was talking about how a government could be moral, right? He’s talking about morality within government, right? That’s what the book Republic is really kind of getting at. He infuses that with a lot of his philosophy. Now in one of his books, Book 3, he’s talking about someone training for the games, and games are very important in Greece.

91. 41:31

    So if you’re training for the games, you got to be very disciplined, Plato says. Well, if you’re being very disciplined, there’s certain types of people you don’t want to hang out with. So Plato says this. If a man is to be in condition, that means condition for the games. Would you allow him to have a?

92. 41:48

    Corinthian girl as his fair friend? Certainly not now. Now the point. This is the point I want to make about this. Plato didn’t have to explain what the term Corinthian girl meant. It was obvious to his readers. What that term was all about, that’s context.

93. 42:15

    So Paul’s admonition that if a weak brother followed the example of a supposedly, and I use that term advisedly, A supposedly strong brother eating meat in an idol’s temple, he could be destroyed. Now, we’re not talking about meat sold at shambles, by the way. Remember in First Corinthians 10, I we talked about, hey, you buy some meat in the shambles. You buy it, don’t ask where it came from, eat it if you want to.

94. 42:44

    Paul’s not talking about buying meat in the shambles. Paul says this. In First Corinthians chapter 8, if anyone sees you a man of knowledge, meaning a strong brother at table in an idol’s temple, might he not be encouraged, if his conscience is weak, to eat food offered to idols and so by your knowledge? This weak man is.

95. 43:08

    Destroyed for whom? Christ died. That is useful. Context. Is it about meat really? Is it really about meat or is it about something more? And meat is like this this surface issue. Really. Oh. You find often on conscious matters that that the conscious matter of the day is just really the surface issue. Not saying that everything underneath is as serious as this, but there is something underneath typically. So this is the context of what was going on, and the context informs wise or unwise decisions, not right or wrong decisions, not black box or white box decisions, wise or unwise Gray decisions, context.

96. 44:11

    It’s a conscience issue. It’s not a command, but it might influence some commands we can see. That pretty clearly can’t we? But let’s now let’s let’s. Reflect back on what’s happening in Rome, because from what I can tell, what’s happening in Romans 14 isn’t nearly so clear as what was happening in First Corinthians 8-9 and ten.

97. 44:36

    See in First Corinthians 14 we have the Jew and the Gentile and I don’t get the impression. That if the Jew saw the Gentile not observing the Sabbath that they’d be tempted. To go sleep with the harlot. That’s not what’s going on here in First Corinthians chapter 4, no, excuse me, in Romans chapter 14. Now that that Jew might be offended, but it’s not. Necessarily leading the Jew to sin, at least not in the same obvious way, could be leading him to sin if he sins against his faith, but not in the same obvious way as was in corn. So what I want to get to now is looking at Romans 14 is what the real issue was rather than necessarily the surface issue. And I I believe the real issue in Romans 14 is revealed to us in verse.

98. 45:39

    Three, you might even want to write. The real issue in your margin next to verse 3. So what was the? Real issue going on. In Romans chapter 14. Let’s put it up here and take a look at it, it says. There let. Him that Edith despise, let not I should say that’s an important word, not don’t want to miss that one.

99. 46:04

    Let not him that Edith despise. Him that Edith not, and let not him which Edith not judge him that Edith for God hath received. Him that word not shouldn’t be there. And let not him which Edith judge him that Edith no what not. And let him which Edith not judge him, that Edith for God hath received. Him.

100. 46:34

     So I guess having the emphasis on the right words is critical. Here. So I think we, although I butchered that, I think you get the idea. So what we have is is how brethren were feeling about one another because of the conflict and and let’s look at what these words. Mean first this word despise.

101. 47:00

     This word despise. If you look in a dictionary, it means to set it not but but what? What do I mean by set it not? Because that’s not even language. That we would use. Today, that means count as if you’re nothing. Said it not means to count as if you’re nothing. So. So what’s going on here?

102. 47:24

     Someone feels judged. They think it doesn’t matter if you judge me. Do you know why it doesn’t matter if you judge me? Because I don’t care about you at all. There’s nothing you can say that’s going to hurt me because I care for your opinion like I care for a bug. I just squashed beneath my shoe.

103. 47:47

     I did not care about the life of the bug, the the insect. I didn’t care about the life of the insect. I squashed it beneath my shoe. I set that at naughty and that’s how much I care about your opinion. It doesn’t matter to me because I don’t care about you. So you can say whatever you want.

104. 48:09

     That’s what that’s getting at. Now that’s a strong statement, isn’t it? And and actually the word despise. Is a really good English word. To. Capture that Greek idea of said it not because despise is a strong. Word. I mean, if there’s a spectrum of words about not liking someone, despise is way on on the on the edge, right? I don’t care about your opinion about now, why would someone say that?

105. 48:44

     Well, to protect themselves, right? If if you’re going to judge me and I’m going to get hurt by that, the easiest way to handle not getting hurt is simply not to care about your opinions. And if I don’t care about your opinions, I can’t be hurt. You follow how that emotional logic works. What about the one who’s judging what’s going on there? Well, I I, I.

106. 49:13

     Liken this to almost really go into a courtroom and, and that I don’t know how it is in New Zealand. I haven’t been in any courtrooms in New Zealand really in in 14 years, thankfully, but in American courtrooms, the judge is always sitting higher than everybody else. Has that happened also in? In New Zealand and and the and the judge in America, they’re looking down.

107. 49:35

     And, and So what the person is judging is doing is they’re giving up a liberty. I’m giving up a liberty to do what I want on that day. I’m giving up a liberty to eat what I want to eat. I’m giving up a liberty to drink what I might want to drink. Now, I’m telling you that you actually have the liberty to do that.

108. 49:53

     You have the liberty to not observe the Sabbath. You actually have the liberty to drink that wine. You have a liberty to eat that meat, but you don’t want to take that liberty. Now if you don’t want to take that liberty, then what are you thinking in your mind? Well, not taking that liberty is probably really important.

109. 50:15

     In fact, it’s so important that I’m going to elevate its importance and tell everyone else about it. Because if I convince them about how important it is to not take the liberty, I feel better not taking it.

110. 50:29

     I’ve elevated its importance to maybe even something that’s salvation worthy. Because that motivates me to forego that liberty comfortably. I I’ve seen this play out in other contexts. I’ve, I’ve seen, I’ve seen people start crazy diets, crazy diets where they’re giving up all these different types of foods. Right. And then talk to everybody else about their crazy diet, right? And and then and then and then brag about look how I look. My ankles aren’t fat anymore.

111. 50:59

     And like everything you’re talking about this wonderful diet, right? And really, why are you talking to us about your diet? Because you actually want to eat a chocolate bar, right? And, and if you, if you, if you listen, you can convince everyone how important your diet is, right? Then, then you then, then, then you’re motivated more to keep it.

112. 51:21

     I’m not criticizing anyone about those things. I’m just saying this is a human thing. It’s a human thing. I’m going to raise its importance. So when I give up my liberty, I feel better about that because I made it important and that’s human. And so the person that judges and the person that despises, they’re stuck in their humanity.

113. 51:59

     And you know what? In this case, what’s at least what’s. Happening in in in in Romans, sadly, what they’re definitely not doing is they’re not loving one another. Now you, you know that the greatest commandment of the law is to love the Lord thy God with all thy heart, soul, mind and strength.

114. 52:22

     You know that for sure, right? And you also know that the second greatest commandment is to love your neighbor as yourself now. Thankfully, the Lord. Jesus actually told us that was the second greatest command because you know, what we would do is squabble. We’d say, well, this commandment is better than that commandment that, you know, we’re, we’re getting together, you know, oh, that this commandment is more important.

115. 52:47

     Oh, that’s commandment is more important. Well, the Lord Jesus Christ says, you know what, these are the number one, number two. In fact, what Paul is going to say in the previous chapter of Romans 13 verse 8, he’s going to say this. Notice he uses the word love about five times there in 3 verses.

116. 53:03

     Now in this instance, he’s really, I think, talking primarily to the weak, because it was the weak who loved the law. See this. Fulfilling in the law a bit. The weak. Loved the law. And wanted to keep the law and wanted to make commandments about keeping the law and and and and impart those and and and scrutinize others who were not keeping the law. And Paul?

117. 53:29

     Says this about. The fulfilling of the law In Romans chapter 13 he says, Oh no man anything but to love one another, for he that loveth another hath fulfilled the law. For this thou shalt not commit adultery. Thou shalt not kill. Thou shalt not steal. Thou shalt not bear false witness. Thou shalt not covet all this black box stuff.

118. 53:57

     All these things that we’d say go in the black box. If there be any other commandment is briefly comprehended in this saying, namely, Thou shalt love thy neighbor as thyself love worketh no I’ll. To his neighbor, therefore. Love is the fulfilling of the law. So, Paul? In this verse takes commandments about no one when no one was disputing. By the way, no one in Rome, in the Roman ecclesia was saying, oh, killing, that’s OK.

119. 54:29

     No one was saying, as far as we know, stealing, that’s OK. They, they weren’t even arguing about these commands. And Paul says these indisputable commands, these commands. Which everybody agreed these commands on which on which there’s no argument about these ones. These ones are fulfilled in the command to love your neighbor as yourself. And the question that hangs in the air is clearly this if the if loving your neighbor as yourself fulfills. These these these commands like that that are found in the 10 commandments.

120. 55:08

     Then loving your neighbor as yourself must fulfill whatever small issue you’re arguing about. And so you are asked, you are invited to ask the question,

121. 55:24

     have I made whatever this dispute is? More important than the command to love my neighbor as myself, as myself is could I really say that that that if I have love the Lord your God and love your neighbor. That actually this issue that we’re arguing about, it jumps over love your neighbor and slots right into second place.

122. 55:53

     Is that what I’m saying, or am I? Am I sacrificing the love of the neighbor in order to promote this command? Have I made the command more? Important than to love the neighbor. Which is essentially the issue of judgment, isn’t it? Because when we want to give up a liberty, we want to make something really, really, really, really important.

123. 56:22

     Because we make it really important, it motivates us all the more to give up the liberty. Paul’s saying is it more important than loving your neighbor?

124. 56:39

     And and actually it begs this question. I probably if you’re here, if you’re, if you’re my age or older there you’ve definitely been involved in an ecclesial issues where you’ve been offended. If you haven’t been offended yet and that’s possible, then that’s wonderful. But but many of your older brothers and sisters have been in situations where someone in the collegiate has offended them.

125. 57:00

     So we can we can reflect on that experience. If if I if someone offended me and it’s it was the middle of whatever issue that I was offended over and I went to that brother that offended me. No. If you went to the brother that offended me and you asked them the question, hey. Are you sure?

126. 57:25

     Right now that Ben Brinkerhoff loves you, What would they say? Or or. On the flip side, I’ve offended someone else. And I’ve taken a liberty that they didn’t like being taken. I’ve, I’ve pushed AII, I, I thought it was necessary to push a boundary that they, that they didn’t want. They’re maybe they’re stuck in the mud, but you know, they didn’t want, they didn’t want this, this liberty taken. And so I’ve really pushed them outside of their comfort zone. I know I’m pushing their buttons, but you know, I feel like it has to be done.

127. 58:05

     So, so they’re, so they’re offended. And let’s say I’ve done that. If you went to that person and you ask them, hey, do you think that Ben Brinkerhoff, this person that’s pushing your buttons? Do you think that he loves you? What would they say sort of makes you think, what would they say?

128. 58:31

     The person that has offended me, would they think I love them? With the person that I’ve offended by pushing my agenda, Would they? Think I love them if. They were asked and if not? Have I put? Something in the second place that shouldn’t be there?

129. 58:57

     Have I raised the importance of something above? What is clearly what is clearly inferior. You see, so many of these issues of ecclesial life can actually be worked out attitudinally once people are sure they love each other, once that’s clear. But when that’s in question, even the smallest issues break us apart.

130. 59:28

     And so in reality, in. Rome. They thought the issue was over days and food and drink and cultural issues. And you know what Paul could have? Given us an exposition on the Sabbath in Romans 14 could have. He could have given us an exposition on unclean foods. Could have.

131. 59:59

     He didn’t. This isn’t about unclean foods. This isn’t about days. This is about. How you are treating one another? That’s the problem. Now what to do about the problem? Well, that’s what we’ll have to talk about next time. Thanks a lot for that, Ben. There’s an awful lot to think about with what you’ve said.

132. 1:00:59

     I’ll, I think it’s probably good that we open up the class for any discussion. Ben, do you want to come back up here? Because that’s probably going to be easier. Yeah, I keep forgetting. You’re not north. All right. Let’s start with a question and thank you. Thanks. And the question is you use the word penis in times continue to expand on that further.

133. 1:01:42

     Future or what’s? It what does it mean in relation? Yeah. So I’m not going to expand on it, but if you want to expand on it, you would go to 1st Corinthians chapter 10.

134. 1:01:58

     Or says in verse 31, So whatever you do, so whether you eat or drink, whatever you do, do all to the glory of God.

135. 1:02:12

     Give no offense to the Jews or to the Greeks or to the ecclesia of God. Just as I try to please all men in everything I do. You see that the opposite there, Tim. He simply doesn’t use a fence. Maybe using a fence by itself would be difficult to understand. So Paul then flips it and he.

136. 1:02:38

     Says just as I try to please all. Men in everything I do now, does that mean Paul’s a men? Pleaser. He doesn’t. Please, men, because he’s afraid of offending men like Paul. Paul definitely offended a lot of people. Not seeking my own advantage, but that of many that they may be saved. So I think that’s the best.

137. 1:03:05

     Place we can go in scripture to unpack maybe what is meant by offense. I’ve spoken to a number of people about these categories, everyone of them. So can you clarify this concept again? Because I think probably a lot of us will think that a strong person brother who has chapter and list the previous point in.

138. 1:04:04

     I don’t think it’s a matter of chapter and verse because Paul had chapter and verse, didn’t he? And Paul would. Paul was very When Paul would describes himself as one who is strong, the offended one could be the weak or the strong. But the way the scripture typically shows this is in terms of defining liberality.

139. 1:04:33

     The weak conscience 1 is one that does not want liberality. Who prefers a rule, right, Even when the rule isn’t necessary anymore? All foods are clean, but I still want the rule. Why? Because that Gray box is pretty associated with the black box, and the black box is definitely black. No one’s arguing about the black box being black, but to me that that’s too close to the black to be comfortable, right?

140. 1:05:00

     Whereas so so the strong is 1 who’s described as being strong in faith. Paul could look at that and look at that same meat and say idols are nothing. Why? Because of his knowledge. But Paul would also say knowledge puffs up, right? So, so the way that I think the way that that we should understand it is that it’s the the way scriptures is describing it typically is that the weak is the one taking offense because they are forgoing a liberal, a liberality.

141. 1:05:40

     The strong is someone who can partake of that liberality because of their faith, because they understand because of their faith that these rules that they used to be under, they’re no longer under. But Paul is at. Pains to say just because you can. Doesn’t mean that you should it may not be wise.

142. 1:06:04

     Pay attention to the context is what Paul is trying to get at. So, so I think it’s, I, I think it’s defies the idea of a chapter in a verse in my experience and a collegial controversies. You know, there could be those people who want to take a liberality, want, want, want to have the freedom to do something.

143. 1:06:28

     And those people, the saying that freedom has dangers. Both had verses, both had both had verses and in, in First Corinthians both had verses and in Romans both had verses. But their understanding of what Christ has accomplished in freeing us from the bounds and the burdens of the law was different. And Paul does link that understanding of that difference to faith.

144. 1:08:00

     Yeah, I’ve done that. Very powerful, but asking. A question. When they’re, you know, on both sides, do they at that time actually love the other other system? Because if I think of context in my own life where that may have happened, whichever, whichever side I’m on, probably not that I’ve been loving the other brother or sister. And that’s quite a powerful addition for us. The other thing that comes up from that is we’re not necessarily as individuals in.

145. 1:08:51

     One or other. Camp permanent, We can have a strong conscience about some things and a weak conscience about others. And actually the pointers and this is what you’re good for. Now the pointers, it’s about our attitude and that’s what changes what whether we are weak or strong and how we live that. It’s very.

146. 1:09:21

     Possible that we have we have the ability because some of the things of the law had been lifted to to take freedoms that those living under the law of Moses were unable to take but it can’t be argued that in every case, taking those freedoms is wise and. So some might say well.

147. 1:09:52

     If we take that freedom, there could be danger. And you know what? It’s too difficult to make a decision about every time there is danger and there isn’t. So in order to keep us safe, let’s just make a rule. That way we’re always. Safe.

148. 1:10:09

     But pretty soon that rule becomes a guide of righteousness, which is which is not. The rule may be keeping us safe, but it’s also creating another standard that’s extra biblical and it creates very easily a means by which we might judge one another. Does that mean that that rule has no merit? Does that rule that mean that rule has no merit, especially regarding our children who are maybe find it more difficult to understand wisdom from from things that are foolish?

149. 1:10:42

     No, just means it’s not righteousness. So we certainly can’t argue that rules are are are bad things. Rules are really wonderful things. You have a rule. That we started Bible class at 7:30. Well, it’s because you have that rule, we don’t have chaos. It’s not righteousness, but it’s a good idea, right? And then at some point you have a conscience, one with another, that we all agree to that so we don’t have chaos on our Bible class night.

150. 1:11:09

     And for everyone to show up at a different time, right, would be disrespectful to one another. So we’re going to treat that rule as if it’s a rule. Right. So you can you sort of can see. But it but. It’s in the Gray box. It’s a Hyundai or a Jaguar, right? It’s not like it’s not 7:00 wasn’t better. I I once made the the the the catastrophic. Mistake of suggesting that over the summer Christchurch N started at 10 AM.

151. 1:11:39

     Oh my, Oh my. What was I thinking? Right, Because I, and my thinking was, was this in California, when you start over summer at 10 AM, the result is that you end up having more brothers and sisters back to your house, right? And there’s more time for that, that kind of summer fellowship, right?

152. 1:12:07

     Listen, did we ever start at 10 AM? Absolutely not, right? Because for some, that was just too much, too much change. It’s not righteousness. There could be reasoned arguments on both sides. But if the eclusia decides 11 O clock, am I at liberty to come at 12 and just start making a ruckus?

153. 1:12:28

     Because I think a meeting should have started at 12 or 10 or whatever else? No, this isn’t island time, right? It wouldn’t be wise.

154. 1:12:40

     But that rule is, is is not righteousness. And if they start at 10A10 O clock on Sunday morning in California, they’re not sinning. Maybe it’s maybe it would be wise or maybe it wouldn’t. But we can discuss it together. But you’re going to be much. Less likely to. Listen to me if you think I don’t love you, and I’m not allowed to not love you if you don’t agree with me.

155. 1:13:09

     That’s just. It’s a silly example, but it was a true one. Because you know, the second, it’s really, you’ve got to be very careful what you think

156. 1:13:32

     about the second. That’s generally what happens when you get into discussions. People want to head their way and it’s going above what you say, yeah. Actually, I’ve been. I’m quite interested. Well. Very interested in. In what you said tonight and and what? Seems to really. Help the discussion. Is if you have. An object just in the Jews and the jet tiles in that the Jews had endless genealogies.

157. 1:14:09

     They had chapter and verses. They had that phrase, you know, they could. They could go everywhere and anywhere to. Prove. Things and when they didn’t have enough they they added more to support themselves, you know so they had all of that, but they

158. 1:14:37

     so. It’s interesting what, what you know, Paul uses very, he uses this really strange language, Ross, in Romans 14. I’m not going to talk about it next week. I just might mention it now. He says none of us lives to himself. None of us dies to himself. If we live, we live to the Lord.

159. 1:14:57

     If we die, we die to the Lord. What is he talking about living and dying for? What he’s really saying is those of us who take liberties, right? Living is taking a liberty and dying is not taking liberty. That’s what he’s really getting at. None of us takes liberties for himself. None of us denies ourself liberties for himself. If we take liberties, we take liberties to the Lord. If we do not take liberties, we do not take liberties to the Lord.

160. 1:15:27

     So whether we take liberties or we don’t take liberties, we are the Lords. That’s what he’s really getting at. But why does he use the word living and dying? Because he uses the word living and dying on purpose. Because Christ bore all those commands on himself when he died and when he rose, they were fulfilled. So the living Lord is not under those commands because they were fulfilled.

161. 1:15:58

     But the dying Lord, the one who carried around a body of death, was under every single one of those commandments. So we still think we’re under those commandments. We’re still dying, but we’re dying to the Lord. If instead under the under into the resurrect of the Lord Jesus Christ, we are living. We’re still living to the Lord.

162. 1:16:19

     That’s what he’s saying there. That’s why he uses the word living and dying, not liberty or not taking liberty, right? If we’re holding ourselves to something that the Lord Jesus Christ put to death, we’re still have to deal for the Lord. But if we say. The Lord Jesus Christ has been resurrected. I am now.

163. 1:16:39

     And This is why he makes the issue 1 of faith because I have to. Believe that the Lord. Jesus Christ put that on himself. Took it to the grave and. You know, according to according to Colossians chapter 3, if I go to Colossians chapter 3 or chapter 2, I should say in Colossians chapter 2 it says in verse 14 verse. Let me maybe verse 1213 and 14 for context. And you were buried with him in baptism, in which you were raised with him through faith in the working of God, who raised him from the dead, and you who were. Dead in trespasses and the uncircumcision of your flesh God made alive together with Him, having forgiven us all our trespasses, having canceled the bond which stood against us with its legal demands.

164. 1:17:28

     And this He set aside, nailing it to the cross. That’s faith. If you’re dying, you’re dying to the Lord. If you’re living, you’re living to the Lord. But if you have faith that those things were nailed to the cross and cancelled, cancelled, that’s a matter of faith, which is why Paul makes it a matter of faith.

165. 1:17:51

     Strong in faith, weak in faith. Therefore, verse 16. By the way, therefore let no one pass judgement on you in questions. This is verse 16 of chapter 2 of Colossians. Therefore, let no one pass judgement on you in questions of food drink. Or with regard to festival, new moon or Sabbath. Why? They were cancelled?

166. 1:18:16

     They were canned, they were nailed to the cross and they were cancelled. So then. To tell someone you are disqualified from the Kingdom because of those things which are dead. Shows you lack faith. That’s why he uses The Word Alive or dead. But in either case, you’re doing it for the Lord and. We’re kind of getting that that we will be covering in our in our session next time I’m going to start, I’m going to start getting into next session too much I. Better I better I better.

167. 1:18:57

     Sit down now while the getting’s good. Thank you for listening to the good Chris Adelphian Talks podcast. We hope this talk helped you in your walk and brightened your day. If you would like to hear more, please subscribe for new episodes. We are on all major podcast platforms and also on YouTube. If you enjoyed this particular talk, please share it with someone else who you think might enjoy it too. For show notes on the talk you just listened to, visit [email protected] or check out the Show Notes section of your podcast player.

168. 1:19:45

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169. 1:20:01

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