326: Tom Peel - Convergence & Coherence

Automatically transcribed. Accuracy is good but not perfect, and words are sometimes wrong. Trust the audio over the text.

1. 0:13

   Welcome to good Chris Selfian talks. I’m Levi. I’m Chris. I’m Jason. And I’m Brian, thank you for joining us this week. On this podcast, we select one talk a week to help us get the Bible in our Daily News feed. Each week. We post a talk that we previewed from suggestions sent in by listeners from around the world.

2. 0:30

   Then we record a short intro beforehand as a personalized recommendation to you on why we are sharing the talk. And now let’s talk more about this week’s talk.

3. 0:50

   This week’s talk is an exhortation by Brother Tom Peel, given at the Oxford Ecclesia in the UK this year 2024. This talk was a really excellent exhortation about listening and kind of the grace and the requirement to listen the show of love and listening and how that really defines ecclesial life. But where I found this to be particularly hard hitting for me, and maybe it’s something just because it’s something I’ve been thinking about is how this applies to how we listen online or on Zoom.

4. 1:22

   And he kind of just mentioned it a couple times, but and then at the end, but this principle that he’s expanding on, I think I think he’s correct in saying that it’s much more difficult to keep the principle of truly listening in a in a loving and kind of ecclesial life manner on Zoom.

5. 1:42

   So anyways, this was a great excitation. Really was really, really interesting and for me and really helpful for something I’ve been thinking about. Brother Tom has his own podcast feed called from the platform in which he posted this excitation. The podcast has been dormant for a while, but there are some he did some really interesting episodes a couple years ago about listening.

6. 2:04

   Actually, it’s kind of, I guess maybe the, the, the roots of this topic. And I definitely suggest checking those out. I can’t, I actually, I’m not sure I listen to all of them myself. So I’m not a not the greatest listener, but but I really enjoyed enjoyed when he was posting those a couple years ago. So anyways, here is coherence and convergence. The word convergence is the kind of the top of my page here. That’s kind of similar to harmony, isn’t it? We tried to converge our voices.

7. 2:35

   We did it better than that last one that that idea of bringing together and training ourselves to hold space for separate parts that kind of come together. And often with convergence, there’s a coherence, there’s beauty, there’s a way of reality to it. I have several senses. I, I can see this. I can touch it.

8. 2:57

   I can hear it, I can taste it. All those things converge to me to know that this is real. I’m not holding an illusion, something that’s deluding me. If I went went, I’ll be like, what? What’s going on that’s mad? Like this strange like thing that doesn’t make sense would have happened that there’d be this dissonance here.

9. 3:16

   And humans are wired to find coherence and and when things converge, yeah. When things don’t align, when they should, we have a dissonance similar with harmony. When that. Well, that note wasn’t, wasn’t right. There’s a distance there, attention. And we strive to seek a resolution for it. This pursuit of coherence. It’s, it’s not just an intellectual thing.

10. 3:39

    It’s it’s a deeply emotional and spiritual thing. And where pattern recognises as human we’re looking, we’re looking for that convergence and things all the time. So we can say, OK, that’s normal, that’s normal, that’s normal. Now I can get on with this. If I know a tiger broke in to the hole, I’m like, right, that needs attending to now. OK, I need to forget what I’m doing here. I need to break my frame of relevance and go, that’s more relevant.

11. 4:06

    We need, we need to run away or whatever it might be. This convergence that we find, this pattern recognition, leads us to great insight and an ability to move and have agency in the world, but it can also lead us to have self deception in many ways. Maybe you’ve all seen the video of the people playing basketball and the gorilla walks across.

12. 4:27

    You’re training yourself to see what’s convergent within the within the question you’ve been asked, counting how many times the ball gets passed. And then you delude yourself when, when, when this monkey walks and you don’t see it. There’s this kind of great delusion that happens. I imagine you’re thinking, I hope this talk has a point of convergence. It makes sense.

13. 4:47

    It has a point to it. So we think there’s a point to it where it comes together and it’s relevant for you. I’m going to go off on a tangent first, then hopefully bring it back, all right? But as Christadelphians, I feel like we find things like cross references in Scripture really profound. When we see patterns, echoes of Genesis in Revelation, prophecy fulfilled by Christ, it feels like we’re uncovering a deeper layer of reality, something to Orient us by. It’s satisfying because it’s not just knowledge. It’s the sense of alignment with this ancient book and what we believe to be the Word of God, a glimpse at his eternal plan. But what happens when what we expect to align doesn’t? We have this conflict, this dissonance, and that’s normally the place where we try and push away. But that’s often the place where growth happens and we find a a moment of expansion.

14. 5:45

    Anybody here enjoy video games that all the young people have left? But as humans, we, we, we think about video games. They, they create a, a compelling world of coherence. You have a goal, a journey to navigate, a sense of agency. Your actions shape the outcome. Failure matters because it straps your sense of coherence, but it’s also a part of the process.

15. 6:14

    When your little avatar dies, you have to restart. But when you restart, you’ve got a deeper level of how to go through that, that that level again. The first time you attempt the puzzle, the solution might seem obvious, But if that doesn’t work, that moment of dissonance forces you to reassess. Then you get, ah, a new insight.

16. 6:32

    The lever opens the bookshelf and the, you know, the, the door opens because of the, the spade and not the key. Something like, I don’t know, something like that in in in these computer games where it’s like you have to work out what in your itinerary might open the next thing and unlock for you.

17. 6:47

    And it’s like aha moments and you go, you move through a new progress. Computer games have really built almost like a an insight generator that is like compelling for a lot of people. You align with the game’s deeper logic. This isn’t just entertainment, it’s a it’s a microcosm of how we grow in real life.

18. 7:07

    When we encounter obstacles in work or relationships or faith, it’s the struggle to align followed by moments of insight that creates meaning for us. We, we find harmony to be meaningful, don’t we? And when you think about that in a philosophical sense, it’s like, why what? Like what’s this? What’s this convergence doing that is meaningful to us? There’s something about the way things come together and cohere that as humans we find deeply meaningful. There’s a phrase that’s I think become more popular. I don’t know if anyone has heard of people entering the flow state.

19. 7:44

    You’ve probably all experienced it. It’s like when you’re deeply engrossed in something that is coming together and providing you with like a puzzle. It’s like, you know, you start with a disparate array of pieces and then you get more like, oh, this, this. Ah, yeah, yeah, yeah. And you get that kind of like movement through something that kind of starts to become fluid as you’re going it. It maybe begins as kind of a a bit clunky. If we were to practice that song some more, we’d get into alignment and it would flow and you’d be in a in a different state.

20. 8:12

    And that’s where kind of time starts kind of moving away from you and you, you realize you’ve been doing something for hours and you break out of it and Rez, you haven’t done anything for dinner. So, yeah, the in a flow state, we’re deeply connected with what we’re doing, whether it’s solving a problem, creating our or even praying.

21. 8:29

    There’s a rhythm of challenge and insight that feels compelling and purposeful. It’s not so boring. We give up with it. And it’s not so challenging that we give up with it. It’s kind of got this medium places. What’s that phrase in education, namely the zone of proximal development, if you’re a teacher. OK, Zone of proximal development, if anyone’s in education, I don’t know, it’s that place where the the lesson isn’t so hard.

22. 8:52

    You’ve lost the interest of the class. It’s not so easy that they’re like, this is so easy. It’s got that area of development in it, that growth. And that’s that’s this idea of flow state. Think about the times you felt this in your spiritual life, perhaps during a Bible study when a verse suddenly illuminates a theme or during prayer when your thoughts and emotions seem to click into place.

23. 9:13

    These moments aren’t just rewarding. They feel like a taste of the divine. There’s a coherent a convergence here and thinking about the Old Testament and to to Timothy will will come on to because I think at the end of to Timothy, there’s a, there’s a, some great instructions on how to hold space for this.

24. 9:32

    The rituals of the Old Testament priests might seem rigid to us, but they’re created and contained an, an arena for achieving flow. Priestly tasks were a convergence of physical, spiritual and symbolic. Every detail of the law, the design of the Tabernacle, specific sacrifices, the timings of festivals was a way of aligning people with God’s holiness, a rhythm that people would have very much engaged with and would have been meaningful. They’d have seen the betweenness of things when when stuff was happening.

25. 9:59

    For us, it’s it’s kind of like just static instructions, but when you’re living it out, you’re seeing it all kind of converging, it becoming a harmony and something meaningful. The priest had to engage fully with precision and intention, intention to create coherence between heaven and earth in that sacred space. The repetitive yet purposeful acts allowed them to find a rhythm, a state where their work connected them to God’s presence. This wasn’t mindless obedience, it was an embodied form of worship.

26. 10:28

    But insight and alignment could occur. But while convergence and coherence are deeply meaningful, they’re not the ultimate goal. For example, you’d probably know more than me when, when was Copernicus? Like 300 years ago, 400 years ago, that you know, the idea that before that you’d have gone out into the, into the get your friends together, go out into an open plane.

27. 10:51

    You watch the sun coming up from one place, go over you and set. You’re like, all right, Are we all we’re all sober. We’re all well, we all saw that happening. All of our senses, we saw it. There’s a sun goes around the earth. That’s how things are. OK, We’ve all, we’re all converging on that conclusion.

28. 11:08

    But often a greater reality can break in and disrupt that what? What seemingly was convergent sends it out into because when people start navigating, they start plotting themselves and they realize that Mars in the sky does this kind of weird loop of the loop. And it’s like, how does that make sense? Why is Mars moving in this weird loop, the loop around the sky, if it’s moving around the Earth, right? And then Copernicus realizes that, well, the maths is better if we put the sun in the middle and the Earth is go. And this sudden realisation, Oh my word, we’re not in the middle of it all this sudden bigger framework and this greater coherence allows for the things that were kind of weird and unexplainable before about the way Mars moves in the sky to suddenly lock into place and become more beautiful, He says. The maths is more beautiful when you do, when you put the sun in the middle, because you get the Mars moving in a simple circle. And consider the priests in the temple. Their work was this precise and intentional and sacred. But there comes a moment where God himself intervenes. This bigger framework arrives and disrupts their flow. In one Kings 8, when Solomon dedicates to the temple as the priests perform their duties, the glory of the Lord filled the temple in a thick cloud of smoke and they could no longer see what they were doing and the ritual was brought to a halt. This thing that they were, you know, in built into them is the most important thing to be doing and and keeping this rhythm going because it was it was so

29. 12:41

    insightful, was stopped by the very thing that had been telling them to do it. And it’s like what’s going on here? And but it’s not a chaos that emerges. It’s a disruption by a greater coherence. The overwhelming presence of God. The ritual was something to point to him, and it’s momentarily annulled because the reality of God himself has arrived.

30. 13:04

    Jesus picks up the same theme in his ministry. When questioned about why his disciples didn’t fast, he responded, How can the guests of the bridegroom mourn while he is with them? The rituals of fasting were meaningful, but they pointed toward a greater reality, the presence of the Messiah. With the bridegroom present, fasting became unnecessary. The greater whole had arrived.

31. 13:28

    And there’s a pattern of this disruption we see throughout Scripture, isn’t it? Whether it’s a, a first born disrupting with a second child, whether it’s the, the, the, the, the Tabernacle being subsumed by the temple and then the temple being destroyed, this holy sacred place being being subsumed, but then by the, the body of Christ, this thing that was not as physical. There’s this disruption.

32. 13:51

    And in every case, God’s disruption is not arbitrary. There invitations to see larger, more coherent reality convergence so vast that it makes our previous understanding seem small in comparison. But this journey from this kind of rigidity of the law to the freedom in Christ that is kind of the bigger picture wasn’t immediate.

33. 14:12

    It unfolds. It unfolds over centuries as God patiently leads his people towards that deeper understanding. Paul describes the law as a schoolmaster that leads us to Christ. It was a scaffold, which is a structure designed to support growth and realization but not constrain it. There’s a phrase called liberating structures in in in some organizations that they provide just enough guidance to enable insight and discovery, but they don’t lock you in.

34. 14:40

    Seems like David exemplifies this liberating approach. He lived within the law but wasn’t bound by its rigidity. When he ate the bread meant only for the priests, he prioritized mercy and human need over strict legalism. This act didn’t break God’s intention for the law, it fulfilled it. Whereas in contrast, we see the Pharisees who treat the law not as a scaffold but as a cage.

35. 15:01

    They cling to it so tightly through its external forms that they missed the deeper reality it pointed towards. And they atrophy. They’re holding it so tightly that when the thing comes, that’s the bigger thing that is going to bring them a greater sense of reality. They rupture and they atrophy at its presence.

36. 15:22

    And they can’t contain it. And they try and they try and control it, and they can’t do it. And I think we get a lesson from. Yeah, the idea of hardening our hearts. When we fail to make room for the expansion and reframing of reality, we risk hardening our hearts. God’s movement feels like a disruption, but it’s always an invitation to grow. If we cling too tightly to the familiar, we may find ourselves unable to adapt when God calls us into something greater. Back to the computer game analogy. It’s like being an immersed and epic level of Final Fantasy 7, fully absorbed in the flow of the game. And then it’s like dinner time.

37. 16:02

    Oh no, like suddenly great reality comes out and and breaks into your your quest and and your coherence in your flow is broken. Yeah, you might resist the call, frustrated by the interruption, but the reality of dinner and the relationships it represents is more important. And we have obviously the the metaphor of new wine and into new wineskins in in the Bible which which shows this.

38. 16:38

    Yeah, so this transition, we’ve seen how God uses structures as scaffolds, leading his people step by step towards greater realizations. But there’s a crucial ingredient that allows us to move from the old structures to the greater reality, and that’s faith. Think about the transitions that are in the Bible from earth to Canaan, from Egypt to the Promised Land, from the temple to the body of Christ.

39. 17:04

    All transitions that require faith. Stepping out of a framework that you know and understand and into a kind of a greater space. Like taking a plant and re potting it. The roots have all kind of come to the edge of the pot and you can see them when you take out the small one and when you put it in the big one.

40. 17:22

    Now those roots have to kind of fumble through the unknown to find the edges again and move, move forward. So we’ve explored how convergence and coherence and flow bring this meaning in our lives and how computer games kind of can hijack that and, and, and, and they’ve been designed because we’re so susceptible to them.

41. 17:43

    How God uses structures to lead us to greater realisations and how he sometimes disrupts those structures to reveal something even deeper. But here’s the thing. I’ve just spent the last, I don’t know, 10. How long are they going for? 10 minutes or so? Doing something that feels slightly out of step with these principles. This talk, as meaningful as I’ve tried to make it, is a monologue.

42. 18:06

    It’s a structure we’re used to. It has a purpose, but it’s a rigid one. I’m literally reading off of a piece of screen. What I mean is I’ve pre baked these ideas gathering together into something that feels convergent and coherent for me. I’ve been listening to lots of podcasts about stuff like this. It’s like, oh, it’s already everyone in Oxford. So I love this.

43. 18:29

    But I work to align insights from scripture, video games, which no one relates to and flow. And I hope it’s meaningful. But as I deliver them to you, they remain separate from you. I’m hoping that my coherence will become your coherence, that things that are convergent for me will be convergent for you. But is this the best way to generate insight? Or are there more collaborative ways to align with God than each other?

44. 18:59

    And I want to put to you a kind of a practice that I think is missing from our set of rituals that we do as Christadelphians. These are dialogical practices as opposed to monological one way dialogical practices where we create a framework for interpersonal dialogical kind of insight. And this is where two or three people engage in deep active listening to let a conversation find itself.

45. 19:30

    The insights don’t come pre baked. Instead, they emerge in the moment through shared attention and genuine connection. Imagine what church might feel like if we approached our shared time this way. Not as something where the insights are handed down from one person to the rest, but as a space where we actively work together to uncover God’s reality.

46. 19:51

    It would be less like delivering a talk and more like building a structure in real time, one that scaffolds us towards something greater. A practice like this isn’t easy to master. I think we had a good example actually trying to master something at the very beginning there. So I’m going to pick up on this a few times. Right, like a new song and a new way of doing it. There was some instruction, but there was a lot of space. And you know, ideally you’d you’d spend more time practising each kind of part and and training yourself in it so it becomes intuitive and then bringing it together. But that would also take a lot of time and a dialogical practices these kind of three person kind of ways of of. Gaining insight.

47. 20:30

    I like learning an instrument. It’s something that you start, it’s very clunky and you have to kind of feel your way into it. It will feel awkward, out of tune, hard to navigate. The process won’t immediately feel coherent or insight. The practice itself is quite rigid. It involves taking turns and alloting time for each person, resisting the urge to jump into free flowing back and forth conversation. But with commitment, something incredible happens. Just as learning an instrument transforms from clunky practice into beautiful music, this practice of dialogue blog begins to lock in.

48. 20:59

    Over time, insights emerge that you couldn’t have worked out on your own because you’re working in genuine connection with others. You find convergence and meaning across the voices of your brothers and sisters. And in the midst of that shared insight, God’s presence, we could call it, becomes more profoundly real.

49. 21:18

    So to give you that the real practicalities of it, one person speaks for two minutes, the other person repeats back everything they’ve heard the first person saying within that 2 minutes. And a third person just observed is like a bystander. What’s going on? And then you move around, the listener becomes the speaker, and each role switches. And as you kind of go through it, person A brings what’s going on for them, Person B brings what’s going on from them. It’s like these disparate, kind of almost like scatter graph kind of things to start coming in, but then you go around again and things start to kind of converge, but in a spiral. You’ve gone round, you’ve gone up a level. Now everything you’ve said before now becomes relevant to the next series of kind of speaking. Maybe you go on for three minutes or 4 minutes instead. And you go around, you do this for like 1/2 an hour, 45 minutes, and you end up with the conversation finding itself rather than me coming and just giving you what I think is relevant.

50. 22:11

    Relevance emerges. And it’s a much I haven’t like. I want to do this more because the tastes I’ve had of it have been really insightful and really profound. And it’s something that I’m advocating for doing. We do a little bit of hands worth. I want to do it more, and I find it very compelling.

51. 22:29

    But a warning is here as well. As compelling as video games can be, there’s a trap to be wary of. They’re addictive. 99% of the skills you develop in them don’t transfer to real life. You can master intricate strategies, overcome immense challenges, feel like a hero in the game world. But when you step away, those skills don’t often equip you to face the complexities of the real world. And as a parallel, I wanted to consider, have we gamified the Bible?

52. 22:52

    Sometimes our approach to Bible study feels like levelling up in a game. We gain knowledge, cross references, historical insights. We might even feel like spiritual experts ready to face any theological challenge. But then when we’re called into the real world, into the workplaces, our relationships and communities, do we find that this knowledge translates into wisdom?

53. 23:11

    Because knowledge is not the same as wisdom. We can memorize verses, debate doctrines, trace prophecies. But if this doesn’t transform the way we live, love, and serve, then we’re no better equipped for the real world than a gamer who’s maxed out the stats but can’t cook dinner. Dinner’s always a important part of this.

54. 23:30

    Jesus didn’t just know the Law, He embodied it. His wisdom wasn’t locked into study rooms or synagogues. It was active and relational. He healed the sick, touched the untouchable, and spoke truth to power. He lived the Scriptures in a way that made them profoundly relevant to everyone he encountered. And I think that’s what a listening exercise does.

55. 23:50

    It brings our understanding into relation with other people and makes us maybe breaks the frame of of what is relevant to us because we’re trying to bring into alignment with other people in the way that they see things. And if our job is just to listen back to what they’re saying, not to go, but what about or have you considered this? You let the conversation find itself. Paul describes a church gathering where participation is shared.

56. 24:20

    What then, brothers? When you come together, each one has a hymn, a lesson, a revelation, a tongue or an interpretation. Let all things be done for building up. And yeah, the the thing I’m proposing is quite rigid. Like there’s a time to it. There’s a turn taking to it. But in the same way that like any practice has to start with a rigid set of training wheels, your scales, you know, or I don’t know, other, other creative practices and things. And then you can, they’re liberating structures that allow you, they, they, they generally allow you to become able to listen more.

57. 24:57

    And it might seem a little bit scary like, well, what, what, what will we talk about? What’s the, what’s the point of it? And, and there’s this kind of this thing opens up in front of us, which we’re not in control of anymore. When we’re allowing the conversation to take charge of what’s happening, an empty space opens up. I think that’s deeply spiritual.

58. 25:14

    And, and, and the lesson that Jesus brings us at his crucifixion because he steps into a, into a place that he has no 12 step program for death and resurrection. He has to move into this openness with faith that there will be a transition. He might not know it, He might not see it in it’s fullness. He has understandings of it, I believe, but I think he has faith in God to open and and hold more than death as he goes into it.

59. 25:42

    Let me just finish with Two Timothy 2 because I think that that that last part about what a good teacher is is actually a description of somebody that holds space from verse 22. Fully youthful passions and pursue righteousness, faith, love and peace along with those who call on the Lord from a pure heart have nothing to do with foolish, ignorant controversies.

60. 26:16

    Controversies, you know that they breed quarrels. This is an important bit. And the Lord’s servant must not be quarrelsome, but kind to everyone, able to teach patiently, enduring evil, correcting opponents with gentleness. And there’s this kind of frameworks out here of, of what a good servant can do, you know, patiently enduring evil. You might not agree with what the other person is saying in their few minutes.

61. 26:41

    And the idea is to hold a space for even if you don’t believe it in order to kind of maybe let the conversation inform them because because the the important bit is that is the next verse. God may perhaps grant them repentance, leading to a knowledge of the truth. It’s not the, it’s not the duty of the servant to grant them or get them to repent. You hold the space for repentance to happen. Does that make sense?

62. 27:13

    It’s not for us to say, you know, to close down the situation. There’s a there’s a space opening up here. I don’t know what they’re going to say. Oh, no, there’s going to be heresies abounding. It’s like feed it back to them, bring it back, bring in other voices, converge where? Where does it converge? Can you bring it into an alignment not not out of controlling them, but out of allowing the conversation to steer them in the in the right direction. The other voices in the group that might bring about this convergence and God may bring the repentance. I feel that’s what Jesus does in his ministry at every, every step.

63. 27:53

    Obviously there’s there’s instances of, of taking control in the temple, but it’s often like bringing another question, opening up in his response to them to allow the work to be done like between them, not in a top down kind of way, but in like a bottom up kind of a way where it emerges, the relevance emerges and the answers emerge. OK, I’m never good at ending my talks. This is kind of where I’m at at the end of it. Well, I also like to is there anything like feeding back this way?

64. 28:26

    It has been a monologue, like where where is there anything that you might want to throw back at me just for a few minutes to to conclude and bring it to an end? Yeah, this is very easy to control, isn’t it? I mean, you can be thinking whatever you want in in the seats there, but it looks like we’re all in like unity, like there’s like socially it’s easier in many ways.

65. 28:48

    And, and, and sometimes that energy gradient the other way is, is a little up uphill towards kind of, and, and it’s more vulnerable as well because you have to kind of open up and, and, and be, I think that the listing container holds that nicely. Like your job is just to repeat back what the other person says. And, and when they get that, oh, I’m just being listened to, this is nice, this is unusual.

66. 29:14

    Then it’s like, then more comes out. They might start with, I don’t, I don’t really have anything to say. I hear you saying you’ve not got much to say about this. Yeah. But you know, like just that beginning of of that kind of holding space for them not having anything to say is like a profound thing. It’s like that’s OK.

67. 29:31

    Like you’re saying no judgement involved in it. And in this kind of thing, it starts to then generate and we get practiced at it. It becomes really profound, I think. Yeah, Yeah. Good. Yeah, it just starts. Yeah, I can imagine trying to hold space to someone who’s like, well, I think the Earth’s flat and that it’s really tricky. Like if you if you’re OK, right, have to kind of and it feels like you’re entertaining an idea that’s. But if you just there is there’s like an intrinsic thing to it where you’re repeating back what they’re saying. And, and sometimes and that’s the thing. You’re not trying to control where it’s going. You’re not trying to go, well, you know, I’ve got I’ve got these facts for you.

68. 30:09

    You’ll have your turn to speak, but you’re not trying to control your you’re. Yeah. And it’s like it’s letting go. And I feel like it’s this emptying of yourself to be in control of the situation, and then something else can take control of it. Yes. So Tom, coming from someone online, you would need to find a way to make it work online.

69. 30:32

    Oh yes. Well, yeah. And I’d much rather try. And yeah, that’s tricky. You, you need, you need a facilitator who can use Zoom to do breakout groups and, and conduct the whole thing in harmony in, in a way that is because it can be very clunky. And that’s why coming together in person to do listening is I think really, really important. And, and, and it presents an argument then for localising yourself amongst a community of people you can be with again, which I think we’ve lost a lot of. So there’s no easy answer to that unless you’ve got some Wizards who are able to facilitate it very, very well and seamlessly.

70. 31:15

    So just bring it then back to, to, to Christ with, for me, the profoundness of stepping into that unknown. We, we’re talking about a microcosm level of between us as these unknowns and we have to like step into those unknowns and, and not try and hold, hold on to it with, you know, grabbing hands. But Jesus just let’s go into it and knowing that God has a, a, a greater coherence, a greater convergence beyond what we can see and, and, and know beyond death that will hold, hold it, which is obviously great faith.

71. 31:52

    It’s extremely easy to say that and very hard to put into practice, but I think one of the places we can put into practice is between people and the conversations that we have. So thank you very much for listening.

72. 32:19

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73. 32:48

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74. 33:04

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