060: Karam Ram - The Life of God and Human Sexuality

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1. 0:13

   Welcome to the good Christian talks podcast. I’m Levi and I’m Chris. Thank you so much for joining us this week on this podcast. We select one taco week to help each one of us get the Bible in our daily news feed. We post at the start of each week for you to listen.

2. 0:30

   With a short intro before hand to kind of set the stage for the talk. You’re about to hear and now let’s hear more about this week’s talk.

3. 0:44

   This week’s talk is by our brother Karim RAM and it’s titled the life of God and human sexuality. It’s part 2 and a 2 parter that he gave at a study Day in the UK at the surely Ecclesia called holy. Holy H WL I holy, holy hly and this talk was suggested to me after we played brother Joe Miles as talk two weeks ago, which was actually from the same weekend, and I was contacted saying He’s also listen to brother Karen’s classes from that weekend really enjoyed them.

4. 1:19

   He specifically gotten in the first class discusses how sex and sexuality outside of the marriage bond is against the will of God and does not fulfill what God wants or, you know, either symbolically or in any way he talks about how it affects sex affects us mentally physically emotionally. Silly and spiritually and when abused and used outside of the design of God, it affects us poorly in those ways in the second talk which is the one I’ve played here.

5. 1:53

   He talks about how God is a relational and marriage God and how he’s commit he committed himself to His People Israel and has now committed himself to us and wants a marriage like relationship with us and he kind of builds out that type to studying the word the Hebrew word for know. Knowing and how God wants to know us very symbolically in a sexual way. It’s a excellent talk.

6. 2:22

   I really enjoyed it at definitely led me left me thinking and it’s going to stick with me for a while. So I really did want to share it. So this is that that second class it is worth Annex claimer though that he does use fairly specific words when talking about sex anatomic words, I guess at near the end of the talk. So I just wanted to touch the touch that as a disclaimer, but still I think a very very beneficial study and that’s really what it is.

7. 2:52

   It is a study and an expansion on an idea of what sex symbolizes and and how it should be used and and a warning against how it should not be used. So here it is brother Karam Ram from the Holy Holy weekend in 2006. My talk tonight is called the life of God. And human sexuality.

8. 3:16

   Okay, we touched on some of these things this afternoon, but we’re going to develop them a little bit more this evening. I want to talk about marriage. Because it will help us to understand a lot of other things if we understand what the Bible says about marriage. Marriage in the Bible is more than just an actual contract in which two people share a period of time worldly goods and a bed together.

9. 3:48

   You know, you can have civil contracts now where you know two people of the same sex can be inverted commas. Be married. The point that I want to make is that that’s not really marriage not in the sense that the Bible thinks of it. As far as the Bible is concerned marriage biblical marriage is the closest possible relationship between two people because in marriage to a literally joined or glue together to become one whole person. Okay.

10. 4:23

    So the the closest possible relationship that you can have with another human being is through marriage. There is no other way. The most intimate relationship that you can have with another human being is in marriage. Let’s just go to Genesis chapter 2 and have a look at this. Let’s just read from verse 21 to 25 again.

11. 4:47

    The Lord God caused a deep sleep to fall upon Adam and he slept and he took one of his ribs and closed up the flesh instead thereof and the rib, which the Lord God had taken from the man. He made a woman and brought her unto the man. And Adam said this is now bone of my bones Flesh of My Flesh.

12. 5:07

    She shall be called woman because she was taken out of man. Therefore shall a man leave his father and his mother and shall cleave unto his wife and they shall become one flesh and they were both naked the man and his wife and they were not ashamed. Just think about what this passage is saying we talked about it this afternoon, but let me just remind you of some of the points that came out of a discussion. Adam who was made in the image of God Was separated into two separate beings into Adam and Eve. He wasn’t separated into Adam and to Yves or even into Adam and Steve.

13. 5:54

    Okay, but Adam and one Eve and there is that profoundly Sublime moments and it’s it’s there in in verse 23. when Adam recognizing himself because that’s what Adam does he recognizes himself and he says bone of my bones and Flesh of My Flesh. I am thou and thou die. No distance, no fantasy. No lust or foreknowledge intrudes here between the man and his wife.

14. 6:32

    There is only the Primal recognition bone of my bones and Flesh of My Flesh and naked before each other’s faces. They feel no sense of Shame no sense of isolation in this state of total disclosure. That completely insensible of each other’s awesomeness. No shame of nakedness of Revelation exists in this state of complete relation.

15. 6:58

    How could they feel shame and embarrassment in each other’s presence. They were the same being now a United whole. They say that a that a picture is worth a thousand words. And so it is that the closest possible relationship between God and the believer is also represented as a marriage. Yes indeed. That is also a marriage as well. This is why the Bible presents human marriage as a simile as an image of the Union that God desires between himself and his people God also wants to be one spirit with us. now that’s quite an amazing idea when you start to think about it the God wants exactly the same thing for himself and nothing from our everyday experience gives us such a direct insight into God’s life because marriage does Marriage is something that really helps us to understand what can help us to understand God and God’s life.

16. 8:13

    Remember, we asked the question this afternoon? Why does God say of Adam that it is not good that the man should be alone. Why does God say that? It’s because God recognizes himself as a relational being as a marriage being. God is a marriage thing. Profoundly, he is an atom was made in His image.

17. 8:42

    Adams Union with Eve was simply just a picture of God’s desire to be with us to be married to us to be married to human beings. And this profound understanding of God’s character is the real basis of biblical marriage. It’s not a case of giving God a human qualities rather. Our experience of marriage is actually an echo of the Creator who made us remember that we were made in the image of God the Creator who made us who created our universe who sustains everything who made promises to the Patriarchs and has Future in mind for the world that he created human marriage is just an echo of that. I don’t know, you know, some of you are still fairly young here. When I was a teenager.

18. 9:37

    I didn’t grow up in a Christian background actually came from a an Indian family but reading my Bible for the first time. I was really struck by books in the Bible like Jeremiah and like Ezekiel and Hosea the describe God’s relationship with Israel as a marriage. I used to read 60 Jose Jose.

19. 9:59

    I was the one that I used to read and I used to think. This is really weird. I don’t understand this. Why does God talk about himself being married to Israel? And the first I used to think that this was just presumptuous that this was just the Hebrew Hebrew Prophets. You Know making perhaps a great deal maybe too much of God’s relationship with Israel. Later on.

20. 10:29

    I used to think that it was an example of forgive the long word here anthropomorphism. Now how many speakers get that into their toxic? But then later I realized that God himself is a profoundly relational being. Remember, what what Moses said in Deuteronomy chapter 10 have a look just come with me. Deuteronomy chapter 10 I’m verse 20. This is what Moses says to Israel. He says Thou shalt fear the lord thy God and him shalt thou serve and to him shall cleave and by his name Shield, I swear. Okay, look at what it says there and to him shall cleave. That’s exactly the same word

21. 11:28

    that’s used to describe the relationship between Adam and Eve in Genesis chapter 2. Therefore shall a man leave his father and his mother and shall cleave or be joined to his wife. Moses exalted Israel to cleave to the Lord their God using exactly the same verb that speaks of Adam and Eve cleaving to each other. They were to stick to God be one with him in the same way that Adam and Eve were to be one with each other. The point is is that Adam and Eve in Genesis chapter 2 are the closest picture that will get before Jesus returns of the relationship that God wants with us. Have you ever thought about it?

22. 12:12

    The God wants to be married to you. Have you ever thought about that, but you could be one spirit with God? Think about it.

23. 12:27

    We may think that that Adam and Eve were were just getting married. We may think the Genesis chapter 2 is only about marriage, but actually what they’re doing is that they’re acting out something for their and for our benefit as well. Their marriage was a simile it was the picture of God’s compassion God’s grace God’s patience God’s faithful loving kindness towards us and our response of faithfulness and worship to God Adam and Eve represented us and God and the relationship that the God wants with us and relationship that we should have with with God their relationship was the picture of God’s desire to be with us.

24. 13:10

    Adam was in the image of God. He was God in the image of God. A truly wonderful and profound thing. One of the Psalms says let all the angels of God worship him which is actually applied to Christ was probably originally about Adam as the image is the representative of God who had rulership and dominion over all creation.

25. 13:38

    Adam was in the image of God in this symbolic biblical exchange and Eve was the Israel or the church or the bride of Christ the Israel of God the faithful community of God. This is all about God really everything in the Bible is really about God. in their love in in the in the relationship that existed between Adam and Eve which is described in terms of Flesh of My Flesh and bone of my bones and that sense of there being no self-consciousness. In that love the glory of God’s life was present among them. They were the first Ecclesia.

26. 14:23

    They were the first Jerusalem. In the New Testament Eve as the as the wife of the private bride of Adam is presented remember as a figure of the Ecclesia the congregation of the community of Believers whose head or husband is Christ have a look at Ephesians chapter 5. Look at the way that Paul uses Genesis chapter 2 Ephesians chapter 5 and verse verse 23 for the husband is the head of the wife as Christ also is the head of the church being himself the savior of the body, but as the church is subject to Christ. So let the wives also be be to their husbands in everything husbands.

27. 15:30

    Love your wives even as Christ also loved the church and gave himself up for it that he might sanctify her having cleansed it by the washing of water and the word that he might present the church to himself. Glorious church not having spot or wrinkle or any such thing, but it should be holy and without blemish. It’s interesting that Paul there talks about the relationship between Christ and the church in terms of a marriage. Okay?

28. 15:59

    It’s very much a marriage. But have a look at have a look at verse 30. For we are members notice now of his body of his flesh of his bones notice the Illusions. They’re back to Genesis chapter 2 for this cause shall a man leave his father and his mother and shall be joined on to his wife or as the revised version says shall cleave to his wife and the two shall become one flesh.

29. 16:34

    Remember that this just Adam And he’s there wasn’t Adam until he’s there was only one atom and one Eve. But look at what he says in verse 32. This mystery is great. But I speak in regard of Christ and of the church nevertheless let every one of you in particular. So love his wife even as himself and let the wife see that she reverence her husband.

30. 17:01

    Just look at those verses again in verse 32 and verse 33 He quotes Genesis chapter 2 in verse 31 there and then he says but I’m actually talking about Christ in the church.

31. 17:14

    I’m not actually talking about marriage at all. Not in the human sense of marriage. I’m actually talking about Christ in the church, but nevertheless he says. Make sure that each one of you reverences her loves his wife and that the wife reverence is her husband. Okay. So what I want you to notice there is the way that Paul picks this up from Genesis chapter 2 and uses it to talk about the relationship between Christ and the church.

32. 17:46

    He’s as the Bride of Adam is presented as the figure of the Ecclesia the congregation or the community of Believers whose head or husband is Christ. Pool makes it clear that he’s reading Genesis 2 in this way, even though he’s speaking of marriage between Believers. He states that Genesis is really speaking of Christ’s relationship with the Ecclesia and the consequent relationship that should exist between believers who are part of the body as Ephesians chapter 5 and verse 32 tells us Have a look at Revelation chapter 21 just have a look at this for a moment. Revelation 21 and verse 2 and 3 and look what it says here. And I John saw the holy city New Jerusalem coming down out of Heaven from God made ready notice. As a bride adorned for her husband. And I heard a great voice out of the throne saying behold the Tabernacle of God is with men and he shall dwell with them and they shall be his people and God himself shall be with them and be their God. and if we just move over now to verse 9 and there came one of the Seven Angels who had the seven balls which were Laden with the seven last plagues and he spake with me saying come hither.

33. 19:26

    I will show Thee the bride right there’s that language again and the wife of the Lamb. And he carried me away in the spirit to a mountain great and high and showed me the Holy City Jerusalem coming down out of Heaven from God.

34. 19:45

    The singer of the Bride of the Lamb or the bride of Christ is used in Revelation in this chapter interchangeably notice with the terms Holy City. With the terms New Jerusalem with the idea of the Tabernacle of God. What does that mean? Why is it used in this way? Why do we start off by talking about marriage and then all of a sudden were talking about Christ in the Ecclesia?

35. 20:12

    Where’s the slippage? The point is that these terms holy city New Jerusalem, the Tabernacle of God these terms are motives for the community of God for the people of God the community of God in its highest and most idealized sense in fellowship with God. This is the consistency this is consistent with the use of the term Jerusalem in the Old Testament not just as a place or a city but as a as a metonym for God’s relationship with his Covenant people in its most personal sense, and we could look at a string of passage in the book of Isaiah. For instance.

36. 20:53

    The point is is that Genesis chapter 2 isn’t just talking about marriage. Is talking about the community of God? in fellowship with God sustaining and having within it the attributes and the qualities of God. You may think that you have to be married to be in God’s image. That’s the question that’s cropped up a couple of times in some of the discussions that I’ve had because obviously, you know, this very much gives that impression here is got you makes man in his own image Adam and Eve are then Adam is then separated into Adam and Eve and then we have even brought to Adam.

37. 21:42

    And Adam said she’s bone of my bones and Flesh of My Flesh and the passage says therefore shall a man cleave to his wife and they two shall become one flesh and being one flesh there in the image of God. They become a reunited whole. This is the point that we are making this afternoon.

38. 21:59

    You may think that you have to be married to be in God’s image, but you can be part of Eve. You can be part of the Ecclesia in fellowship. And so manifest squats God’s qualities. Amongst the community of fellow Believers and in that way you can be married to Christ and that’s something that we haven’t really talked about.

39. 22:23

    Really. I think Andrew may have sort of mentioned it in passing in his talk the idea that you could actually be married to Christ. Remember what I said at the start of this talk God wants to be married to us. It’s all about marriage. It’s all about marriage all the way through God is a marriage being Christ wants to be married to his people he wants to have Union with Now I want you to think about what I’m going to say now very carefully because I think this is really important. The most profound and intimate Act of relation between a husband and a wife is described in the Bible as knowing right? Remember we put up some of the phrases that the Bible uses. But in its most profound sense, it is an act of knowing. Of knowledge of disclosure to become one flesh to be intimate with somebody.

40. 23:21

    And again, I put it to you that this is exactly what God wants with you. He wants that intimacy. He wants to know you and he wants you to know him. Remember what God Said to Israel. He said to them. He said of all the families of the earth only you have I known. And the verb that God uses there. Is exactly the same verb that’s used to describe the act of sexual intercourse between a man and his wife. God says to Israel only you have I known. It’s the the Hebrew word yada.

41. 24:02

    But I want you to have a look at this passage Jeremiah says he won’t have a look. Marriage is a wonderful thing. Human sexuality is a wonderful thing in the proper context and because it derives itself from God himself Jeremiah 31 and verse 33 and I want you to To read these words very carefully.

42. 24:34

    But this should be the Covenant that I will make with the house of Israel. God is also the god of covenants. God is always making arrangements in relationships with people. They shall be the Covenant that I will make with the house of Israel after those days. Saith the Lord and look at What God Says I will put my law. In their inward parts and write it in their hearts and will be their God and they shall be my people and they shall teach no more every man his neighbor and every man his brother saying know the Lord for they shall all know me from the least of them unto the greatest of them.

43. 25:18

    Saith the Lord for I will forgive their iniquity and I will remember their sin no more. Look what God is saying here is a wonderful thing the New Covenant. God says I will put my law I’m going to put my law in their minds and in their inward parts, and they shall know me.

44. 25:39

    What was the law of Moses written on? tables of stone The law was no longer going to be written on tables of stone. But instead what God was going to do was that he was going to put it inside them. God was going to put his law inside them and that’s notice what Jeremiah 31 their says, that’s how they would know God.

45. 26:07

    God was going to put his law inside them and that’s how they would know him. They shall teach no more every man his Neighbour and every man his brother saying know the Lord for they shall all know me from the least onto them to the greatest of them. Saith the Lord why because he was going to put his law inside them.

46. 26:31

    I don’t know whether you’ve ever thought about it. But what God is saying or what God is implying here. Is that the Ten Commandments? What God’s seed? The Ten Commandments were God’s seed they contained they contain God’s DNA. What is the structure of God’s DNA is it a double helix? Isn’t it rather his compassion?

47. 27:01

    His graciousness his patience his faithful loving kindness. And remember what John says and he that is born of God does not commit sin because his seed God’s seed remains in him. This is precisely what God wants with us not just for us to know about him, but God wants us to know him and he wants to know us. So wonderful thing.

48. 27:32

    This is what human marriage draws itself from. This is what human marriage is a picture of this is what human marriage is based on God’s desire to be with us.

49. 27:45

    And if in a marriage to individuals only appreciated the mere facts about each other. If that’s all they appreciated it wouldn’t be much of a relationship. knowing about each other helps to build a relationship, but it isn’t the essence of it marriage demands knowing each other in a far more intimate way and that act of knowing Should profoundly alter the individuals concerned forever.

50. 28:18

    It should alter them mentally emotionally physically and spiritually remember what we said this afternoon. intimacy physically emotionally spiritually mentally God wants to know us God wants us to know him. He doesn’t just want us to know about him. I think collectively were very good about knowing about God, you know, we can reel off all the verses.

51. 28:53

    But knowing god. Knowing god in a personal way in the way that a man might know his wife or in the way that a wife might know her husband is a very different kettle of fish. It’s about taking into ourselves God’s seed remember the the DNA of God the Ten Commandments God qualities and characteristics knowing each other is different to knowing about each other knowing each other when two human beings get married.

52. 29:26

    They are altered they are changed by their intimacy with each other. It should change the way a husband and wife feel about each other and themselves. They should become one being. You know when I was when I was a bachelor, I didn’t really like art. I didn’t really sort of like coffee but my wife for instance likes art and coffee and wasn’t an amazing thing that I learned to like art and I learn to like coffee as well.

53. 29:57

    You know when you’re in that relationship with somebody. You take home some of those characteristics, you know you grow together you change together. And this also is profoundly the knowing that God wants of us. This is the knowing that God wants of us not just mere academic facts or apologetics, but God wants to fill you.

54. 30:28

    He wants to inseminate you. He wants to fill me. He wants to inseminate me with his word with his DNA. God wants to change me and God wants to change you. He that is born of God does not commit sin because his seed abides in him. God doesn’t want me at academic facts or apologetics. We may be able to make a thousand interconnections between the Book of Revelation and the rest of the Bible. But if we don’t know God it’s not worth a single penny. Knowing god is what it’s all about. He wants to fill us so that we’re altered mentally emotionally physically and spiritually this is the true knowledge or knowing of God.

55. 31:20

    It’s a radical conception of knowledge. It really is a radical conception of knowledge transcending me enosis transcending mere acquisition facts this type of knowing this knowing of God is life eternal. Remember what Jesus says in John 17. This is life eternal. That they might Know Thee the only true God and Jesus Christ whom thou Hast sent.

56. 31:49

    Human sexuality when properly conducted within the context of marriage should remind us that this is precisely what God wants with us. When God divided Adam into two separate beings as I said earlier on she created a force whose real power is only really clearly expressed in the Song of Solomon. Which is the most logical book of the whole of the Bible set me as a seal upon thine heart as a seal upon thine arms for love is as strong as death jealousy is as cruel as the grave the flashes thereof are flashes of fire of very flame of Yahweh. Thank you for listening to the good Christian talks podcast, Please Subscribe for new episodes and leave a review and apple podcast or whatever service you are listening from to help people find the show when they search for it. If you enjoyed this talk share it on social media. So other people can find it to for show notes and links to the talk that you just listen to visit our show page at anchor dot f m / G CT T we want to encourage everyone to share their thoughts from the talk this week on Facebook or Instagram where we are at good christadelphians talks or on Twitter where we are at GCT underscore podcast, if you know of a great talk, we want to know about it to send a suggestion to good Krista delphian talks at gmail.com or message us on any of our social media platforms.

57. 33:24

    Thank you for listening. God bless and talk to you next week.